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[Multiple Questions] [message #56781]

Thu, 15 April 2021 15:00

MeerMusik
Messages: 13
Registered: April 2021
Location: Germany, Lower Saxony, Ha...

Promising Member

Hello.

This is my first post here. I tried UPP already in 2018 (well Hello World with some Menus and Message Boxes - nothing fancy). Now that I left behind the Qt Framework, I am looking for an Alternative. UPP has found its way on to my List of Candidates. As a lot of Information are really outdated (or atleast partially not updated for years), I want to ask some Questions first:

1. What is the Status of the Accessibility Support on Windows and Linux? Mainly Screen Readers -> Tabbing through Widgets etc.
2. Do you Support modern Backends such as Directx 12, Wayland, Vulkan, OpenGL etc.?
3. Can your Code be mixed with Libraries like Botan or is it too much "UPP-specific"?
4. Can I use self-compiled Version of ICU, OpenSSL/Botan, SQLite etc.?
5. If someone knows this: I saw that you switched to a specific Clang Variant. Can I use the MinGW-w64 Compiler on MSYS2 as well?
6. I remember that in 2018, when I tried to compile against MinGW, somehow always VC++ Flags got added and compilation always failed. It was the main reason I stopped playing around with UPP. Has this been fixed? I am talking about self created Configuration Files.

Thank you in advance!
Oliver

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56791 is a reply to message #56781]

Fri, 16 April 2021 10:38

Xemuth
Messages: 387
Registered: August 2018
Location: France

Senior Member

Hello MeerMusik,

Quote:

5. If someone knows this: I saw that you switched to a specific Clang Variant. Can I use the MinGW-w64 Compiler on MSYS2 as well?

I remember (at the time TheIDE swapped to Clang) using the MinGWw64 of MSYS2 to compile some of my project using U++ and TheIDE, all I did was creating a build method configured for it.
For all reminded questions; I will let more empowered peoples awnser it

[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2021 10:39]

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56803 is a reply to message #56781]

Sat, 17 April 2021 06:22

mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005

Ultimate Member

MeerMusik wrote on Thu, 15 April 2021 15:00

3. Can your Code be mixed with Libraries like Botan or is it too much "UPP-specific"?

No reason not too.

Quote:

4. Can I use self-compiled Version of ICU, OpenSSL/Botan, SQLite etc.?

Sure.

Quote:

5. If someone knows this: I saw that you switched to a specific Clang Variant. Can I use the MinGW-w64 Compiler on MSYS2 as well?

Yes, with some effort. The clang we are using about as good as you can get in Win32. Anyway GCC is still supported, but you will need to configure it yourself.

Quote:

6. I remember that in 2018, when I tried to compile against MinGW, somehow always VC++ Flags got added and compilation always failed. It was the main reason I stopped playing around with UPP. Has this been fixed? I am talking about self created Configuration Files.

I do not remember it being broken. Most likely you had wrongly configured build method (probably wrong builder).

Mirek

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56832 is a reply to message #56781]

Sun, 18 April 2021 14:04

MeerMusik
Messages: 13
Registered: April 2021
Location: Germany, Lower Saxony, Ha...

Promising Member

Hello again.

Thank you Xemuth and Mirek for your Replys.

To answer some of my other Questions - maybe also for other People interested in Upp:
1.) Compiler Flags: Sadly, yes you still hardcode / preset Flags like 'mthreads'. Now that I played around with Upp a little bit, I remember, that this was a Problem in 2018 when I wanted to use MinGW or Visual Studio and vice versa. I guess this makes it easier for Upp Beginners. Fortunately, I can easily overwrite this by setting -pthreads on the MinGW MSYS2 Build File. Need to test if more of this will come up.

2.) Accessibility: Very quick Test with the NVDA Screen Reader: Application Title, Menu Names (not Menu Entries) and Text in the Statusbar (set at App start) gets read. Text in a MessageBox (PromptOPCancel) for Example does not get read - unless I hover the Mouse over the Text. And the Text (Description of the Buttons) get read all in once. But the latter seems to me like a Limitation of NVDA or the Windows API. No Idea. I am totally new to tha Accesibility Stuff. As I did not found any Upp Source File named Accessibility or something like that, I guess Upp does not have any direct Support for it and everything depends on the Windows AUI and the used Screen Reader. That would explain why this Question was not answered yet Wink

Thanks
#StaySafeStayHealthy Smile

EDIT01: Tested with latest Nightly: 18th April 2021 on Windows 10 Pro 20H2 (19042.908)

[Updated on: Sun, 18 April 2021 14:07]

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56833 is a reply to message #56832]

Sun, 18 April 2021 16:15

mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005

Ultimate Member

1) yeah, there is always a thin line between what should be hard-coded and what should be predefined. It is possible we have set it at wrong place. Should not be that hard to move this particular piece from hard-preset to build method...

Which is one of advantages U++ can offer: If you suggest a reasonable thing loud enough, there is a high chance it will be implemented pretty soon.

As for Accessibility, you are correct, we are blissfully ignorant to this as well. Once again, suggest things loud and things will happen...

BTW, things that need improvement in U++ from my perspective:

- So far we only support UNICODE BMP (good old wchar). We need to move to supporting graphemes instead (the one thing Rust got right from the beginning).

- We need debugger to understand Dwarf. Currently we are using gdb as backend in linux and .pdb / dbghelp.dll in Win32.

- Our C++ parser (for things like code navigation) needs to get better, especially expression type evaluation.

Mirek

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56834 is a reply to message #56781]

Sun, 18 April 2021 17:50

MeerMusik
Messages: 13
Registered: April 2021
Location: Germany, Lower Saxony, Ha...

Promising Member

1.) Yeah it would be nice if Flags like this would not be hardcoded / predefined. Alternatively: Make the File with Pre-Definitions easily available and editable. DGUI obviously needs to be set depending on what is defined in the Project File (or wherever you store that).

2.) Accessibility Support: IF I would end up using Upp (still in the Final Test Phase) I would try to "get my Feet wet" and would love to help to implement this - if I would be able too and someone would show me where to start. For the foreseeable Future, my App needs to Support the old Windows 7+ Accessibility API as well (And I am also targeting Linux). Even as those Windows Versions are "Dead", they will be heavily used for the next couple years. And yes, I am aware that an Implementation and thorough testing of those API's will take many Months.

3.) Unicode: I would probably use ICU if I would have a urgent short-term need of modern Unicode / things not supported in the current Implementation.

4.) Debugger: Can not help you with that. This is way over my head. Simple Hobby Developer.

5.) C++ Parser: The more the better Smile

But what I really miss already in the Editor:
* No Text selected / marked: CTRL+SHIFT+Arrow Down or Arrow Up: Move the current single Line of Text (in which the Cursor sits) up or down
* Multiple Lines of Text selected: CTRL+SHIFT+Arrow Down or Arrow Up: Same but moves thew whole selected Textblock up or down

BTW: I had no Idea Upp existed until 2018:
People started to get annoyed with how Digia (The Company behind Qt - for those who do not know) CEO's are handling things.
On the official Interest-Mailing List, a Freelancer mentioned Upp (and other) as a possible Alternative. That is how I found you. I was really surprised that are nearly as old as Qt (if I remember correctly).

For a Core Team of 2 (3?) People: I take off my nonexistent Hat and say: I find some things to get used to but: Congratulations on how far you have come! Especially without any big Funding like other Projects had or still have.

But back to the Topic: Thanks four answers and for also pointing out (some) of the weaknesses of Upp. That is what I love to see!

[Updated on: Sun, 18 April 2021 17:54]

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Re: [Multiple Questions] [message #56836 is a reply to message #56834]

Mon, 19 April 2021 00:54

mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005

Ultimate Member

MeerMusik wrote on Sun, 18 April 2021 17:50

But what I really miss already in the Editor:
* No Text selected / marked: CTRL+SHIFT+Arrow Down or Arrow Up: Move the current single Line of Text (in which the Cursor sits) up or down
* Multiple Lines of Text selected: CTRL+SHIFT+Arrow Down or Arrow Up: Same but moves thew whole selected Textblock up or down

This is actually seems like a nice function, implemented in trunk (would be in nightly in 2 days, or you can checkout svn or git and compile your own).

Mirek

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