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Home » Community » Coffee corner » U++ PR or findability, if yes - how?
U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1499] Tue, 07 March 2006 05:57 Go to next message
fudadmin is currently offline  fudadmin
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from http://www.findability.info/
Quote:

In the 21st Century, successful business will be focused on findability, about creating an online and offline presence that helps your customers find you.
Business and marketing used to be characterized by efforts to brand your company and get in front of your customers, but that's not what's propelling the hot new companies, the entrepreneurs who are already striking it rich in this new world.


If you google "GUI programming", what you get in the first page - mostly Python, Qt...
if you google "C++ GUI programming", what you get - mostly Qt...
and in the 8'th place - wxWidgets...
if you google "GUI toolkits", try your self...

(btw, the results can be different every few moments)
But not the upp.sourcforge...
And it's not because they are established for longer. But, IMHO, those sites are using what is needed for the search engines more cleverly.

Titles and H1 tags are the most important. E.g. (I copied...)
<title>Trolltech - Cross-platform C++ GUI Development, and Embedded Linux Solutions</title>

<H1>wxWidgets cross-platform portable GUI programming with C++</H1>
<title> Fast Light Toolkit (FLTK)</title>
btw, fltk is not shown in the first page if search is "gui toolkits"

But upp uses none of <H1> tags ... At least not for the main page. And <TITLE>Ultimate++</TITLE>

Conclusion: "Findability" or "passive PR" can't be a neglected part of "populiarisation".
So I suggest:
1. Make a prioritised list of 2 and 3 keyword combinations and/or rename/add page titles reflecting these combinations and achieve that those pages whould show somewhere near main competitors.
2. Make reasonable use of H tags, too.


Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1500 is a reply to message #1499] Tue, 07 March 2006 08:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
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fudadmin wrote on Mon, 06 March 2006 23:57

from http://www.findability.info/
Quote:

In the 21st Century, successful business will be focused on findability, about creating an online and offline presence that helps your customers find you.
Business and marketing used to be characterized by efforts to brand your company and get in front of your customers, but that's not what's propelling the hot new companies, the entrepreneurs who are already striking it rich in this new world.


If you google "GUI programming", what you get in the first page - mostly Python, Qt...
if you google "C++ GUI programming", what you get - mostly Qt...
and in the 8'th place - wxWidgets...
if you google "GUI toolkits", try your self...

(btw, the results can be different every few moments)
But not the upp.sourcforge...
And it's not because they are established for longer. But, IMHO, those sites are using what is needed for the search engines more cleverly.

Titles and H1 tags are the most important. E.g. (I copied...)
<title>Trolltech - Cross-platform C++ GUI Development, and Embedded Linux Solutions</title>

<H1>wxWidgets cross-platform portable GUI programming with C++</H1>
<title> Fast Light Toolkit (FLTK)</title>
btw, fltk is not shown in the first page if search is "gui toolkits"

But upp uses none of <H1> tags ... At least not for the main page. And <TITLE>Ultimate++</TITLE>

Conclusion: "Findability" or "passive PR" can't be a neglected part of "populiarisation".
So I suggest:
1. Make a prioritised list of 2 and 3 keyword combinations and/or rename/add page titles reflecting these combinations and achieve that those pages whould show somewhere near main competitors.
2. Make reasonable use of H tags, too.





Even more important that H1 tags is "keywords" meta-description - and that is "complete" for U++.

BTW, google: "C++ GUI Toolkit" returns two references of U++ on the first page - only toolkits that are before us are Qt, wxWidgets and FLTK.

So I guess it is not that bad after all (and our PR/SEO advisor made a good job).

Just a sidenote: U++ really is not just about GUI. I am reluctant to lock us in that by putting "GUI toolkit" to the frontpage..

Mirek
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1501 is a reply to message #1500] Tue, 07 March 2006 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fudadmin is currently offline  fudadmin
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Could tell then which keywords are more important than "GUI toolkit"?
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1502 is a reply to message #1500] Tue, 07 March 2006 10:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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luzr wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 07:07


Even more important that H1 tags is "keywords" meta-description - and that is "complete" for U++.

BTW, google: "C++ GUI Toolkit" returns two references of U++ on the first page - only toolkits that are before us are Qt, wxWidgets and FLTK.

So I guess it is not that bad after all (and our PR/SEO advisor made a good job).

Just a sidenote: U++ really is not just about GUI. I am reluctant to lock us in that by putting "GUI toolkit" to the frontpage..

Mirek


1. from http://www.excessvoice.com/seo-article4.htm
(and other respectful sources,btw)
Quote:


Meta Keywords Tag:

The Meta Keywords tag has become less and less important as far as search engine optimization is concerned. In fact, you can get top rankings without having anything in the Meta Keywords tag at all


2. Do you think Trolltech has worse advisers if they write it the title <title>Trolltech - Cross-platform C++ GUI Development, and Embedded Linux Solutions</title>?

3. Also, statistically, users don't search "C++ GUI toolkit", they search: C++ GUI toolkit. Or other combinations.

4. I'm not suggesting to "lock" U++ into "GUI toolkit" fraze. On the contrary, I'm talking about positioning and branding of Ultimate++ on top of a market segment which must be described by some unique keywords.
In other words, which minimal and loose set of keywords would give from google and other search engines the first place?

5. Do you think there is no room for improvement in this area for Ultimate++?
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1503 is a reply to message #1502] Tue, 07 March 2006 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Also, from http://www.spiderweblogic.com/HTML-Meta-Tag-Generator.aspx

Quote:


DONT get your site banned by not knowing the proper techniques!
...
HTML meta tags should contain words and phrases that are also found in the Title tag, the H1 tag, and is in the page Body content. Higher frequency of the keywords in all these other locations in addition to the meta tags increases the change of it comming up on searches.
...
(Some, like GOOGLE, do ignore keywords, but using keywords effectively can help your ratings on several search engines.)



from upp.sourceforge index.html:

Quote:

<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="framework, toolkit, widget, c++, visual, studio, dev-cpp, builder, ide, class, component,wxwidgets, qt, rapid, application, development, rad, mfc, linux, gui, sdl, directx, desktop"/><meta



Unfortunately, in the page you will not find any of these:
1 dev-cpp
2 builder
3 ide,
4 rad,
5 qt
6 widget
7 class
8 wxwidgets
9 mfc
10 framework
11 component
12 directx
13 desktop

from 23.
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1504 is a reply to message #1503] Tue, 07 March 2006 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
fudadmin is currently offline  fudadmin
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More. Now compare how to easy is to find upp Overview and Qt...
And keywords and content on those pages.

"/><meta name="description" content="Qt: Strategic framework for cross-platform C++ application development on Linux, Mac, Windows"/><meta name="keywords" content="API, c++, class library, cross platform, cross-platform, development, framework, gui, linux, mac, open source, qt, visual studio, windows, x11"/>

http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/index.html

Do you still think Ultimate's content, use of font sizes etc is better? Or just Ultimate++ is very different kind of product - not very GUI toolkit? Or much more than Trolltech's understanding?
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1511 is a reply to message #1504] Tue, 07 March 2006 22:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
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fudadmin wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 06:00

More. Now compare how to easy is to find upp Overview and Qt...
And keywords and content on those pages.

"/><meta name="description" content="Qt: Strategic framework for cross-platform C++ application development on Linux, Mac, Windows"/><meta name="keywords" content="API, c++, class library, cross platform, cross-platform, development, framework, gui, linux, mac, open source, qt, visual studio, windows, x11"/>

http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/index.html

Do you still think Ultimate's content, use of font sizes etc is better? Or just Ultimate++ is very different kind of product - not very GUI toolkit? Or much more than Trolltech's understanding?


Well, Trolltech have enough money to spend on professional website designer, PR team etc.

I definitely think there is a room for improvement with the website.

However, given the fact that U++ is fourth "C++ GUI Toolkit" listed on Google indicates the situation is not that bad.

FIY, sorting of Google items is based on number of links to the site from other sites (google pagerank). No keywords or H1 tags are going to change a thing for searching "GUI toolkit" more than that.

I can certainly spend another 14 days improving the website. Or I can work on the new Draw, or tutorial. I find later much more important for U++ progress.

However, current website is on "uppbox", you have full access to it. Just please, before doing large changes, make a copy (e.g. "uppbox2") so that we can create preview of your changes for the community.

Mirek

[Updated on: Tue, 07 March 2006 22:07]

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Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1530 is a reply to message #1511] Tue, 07 March 2006 23:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hojtsy is currently offline  hojtsy
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Currently I am maintaining the website. This means that I generate & upload the website content from Topic++ sources which are edited by the real authors. As I am doing it for free, I can only afford limited time for this. Recently I did some improvements:
1) corrections in the source code of the generator to decrease the number of HTML syntax errors on the generated HTML pages.
2) added site search feature
3) Examples & Demos now have the name of example or demo in the title. This improves readability of site search results.

I was also thinking about how to raise Google rank, but I am not that educated in this area. I usually experience with searching for "GUI toolkit" (without quotes). I have a particular reason for this: this was the search term I used when I found (and read about) U++ for the first time ever. My limited experiencing shows that sourceforge U++ page came up on the first page for "GUI toolkit" (no quotes) search for the few days while the first sentence on the page stated that "Ultimate++ is a radical and innovative GUI toolkit". Later Mirek asked to replace "GUI toolkit" with "C++ Platform". I see that this has a wider meaning. But I don't think that many people will search for "C++ Platform", and even if they do U++ is nowhere in the list. I am also afraid that this term will not be clear for some of our visitors.

I am open to any change suggestions, but sorry I can not afford to spend lots of time to research rank-optimization techinques. Anybody who feels confident with this knowledge is welcome to make specific modification suggestions, such as what keywords should be used, or what should be the text of the title page. Even cosmetic comments for the order or colors are welcome.

-Sandor Hojtsy
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1531 is a reply to message #1511] Wed, 08 March 2006 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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luzr wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 21:06



Well, Trolltech have enough money to spend on professional website designer, PR team etc.

I definitely think there is a room for improvement with the website.

[...]

I can certainly spend another 14 days improving the website. Or I can work on the new Draw, or tutorial. I find later much more important for U++ progress.




Thanks, Mirek for agreeing on improvements! I don't want you to make the changes. All I want is your opinion and more community members to get actively involved. The more ideas, the better the result. Then we might have more chances to catch Qt and others in many areas.

Quote:

However, current website is on "uppbox", you have full access to it. Just please, before doing large changes, make a copy (e.g. "uppbox2") so that we can create preview of your changes for the community.

Mirek


If I had clear "crystal clear" understanding what is needed, I would have already done so. Smile But who is so keen these days to invest his time into "exploring wrong directions"? That's why, before doing any changes, I want at least strategical things discussed and agreed on forums.

So, could anyone improve this:

<meta name="description" content="Ultimate++: fast and innovative framework for cross-platform C++ application development on Windows, Linux, Mac (under developement)"/>

<meta name="keywords" content="c++, library, class library, GUI, GUI toolkit, control, cross platform, cross-platform, development, framework, linux, mac, open source, visual studio, windows, x11, ultimate, u++"/>

(need to count characters...)
More keywords would be: advanced, internationalization, unicode.

More strategical ideas:
1. Because on upp home page the news will take more and more space, would it be more reasonable to make that "home and news page" with only a brief introduction (like most companies do...)
and links "read more..." On the home page to mention how many years have already spent on developement.

2. Make a separate "Overview" page with a nice structure (this kind: http://www.trolltech.com/products/qt/index.html )
of U++ features: 1.Set of libraries 2.GUI toolkit 3.IDE 4.Assitant++ ...
with links to a separate pages... by moving and rearranging stuff from current home page. Put "overview" a link to "main menu".

3. Rename current "Overview" to "In depth" or "fundamentals" page. Make better use of fonts. Put a link to "main menu".

4. Make a separate "Sreenshots" page of TheIDE, widgets, some apps. Put a link to "main menu".

5. Make a separate page "The Team and Roadmap". (Authors and License sounds too official). That would add a human touch to a roadmap and it would relate "who is doing what" in the past, now, and in the future. And show commitments. With some "recruitment adverts" -(what you get if you join). (We need more tutorial - documantation writers etc! It's not advertised on "roadmap") Maybe with a link to some brief stories of joining. History of Ultimate++?

Opinions?

[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2006 01:53]

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Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1533 is a reply to message #1530] Wed, 08 March 2006 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
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hojtsy wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 17:48

I can only afford limited time for this. Recently I did some improvements:
1) corrections in the source code of the generator to decrease the number of HTML syntax errors on the generated HTML pages.
2) added site search feature
3) Examples & Demos now have the name of example or demo in the title. This improves readability of site search results.



Actually, your success exceeds expectations! Good job, thanks!

Quote:


I was also thinking about how to raise Google rank, but I am not that educated in this area. I usually experience with searching for "GUI toolkit" (without quotes). I have a particular reason for this: this was the search term I used when I found (and read about) U++ for the first time ever. My limited experiencing shows that sourceforge U++ page came up on the first page for "GUI toolkit" (no quotes) search for the few days while the first sentence on the page stated that "Ultimate++ is a radical and innovative GUI toolkit". Later Mirek asked to replace "GUI toolkit" with "C++ Platform". I see that this has a wider meaning.



OK. I think it it mas a mistake - "GUI toolkit" is back (just sync it please).

However, perhaps we could find how to describe it with "GUI toolkit" in the sentence, but not limiting U++ to GUI?

Mirek

[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2006 09:17]

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Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1571 is a reply to message #1530] Thu, 09 March 2006 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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hojtsy wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 22:48



I was also thinking about how to raise Google rank, but I am not that educated in this area. I usually experience with searching for "GUI toolkit" (without quotes). I have a particular reason for this: this was the search term I used when I found (and read about) U++ for the first time ever. My limited experiencing shows that sourceforge U++ page came up on the first page for "GUI toolkit" (no quotes) search for the few days while the first sentence on the page stated that "Ultimate++ is a radical and innovative GUI toolkit". Later Mirek asked to replace "GUI toolkit" with "C++ Platform". I see that this has a wider meaning. But I don't think that many people will search for "C++ Platform", and even if they do U++ is nowhere in the list. I am also afraid that this term will not be clear for some of our visitors.


-Sandor Hojtsy


So do you agree with this strategical approach:
"Structure of upp web and Pages(their titles, content, paragraphing with H tags,keywords) must be written, first of all, having in mind -how people and search engines will search for this"? Smile

Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1577 is a reply to message #1571] Thu, 09 March 2006 05:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
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fudadmin wrote on Wed, 08 March 2006 21:14



So do you agree with this strategical approach:
"Structure of upp web and Pages(their titles, content, paragraphing with H tags,keywords) must be written, first of all, having in mind -how people and search engines will search for this"? Smile




Then we do not have to care about H1, but rather about being referenced from other websites. (With the exception of "GUI toolkit")

This part is still the same - if you want us to go up (in google pagerank and popularity), you need references. One way how to get references is to write and submit articles. As simple as that.

Mirek
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1583 is a reply to message #1577] Thu, 09 March 2006 05:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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oh, Mirek. When will you understand that proper web programming is more important than references...?

[Updated on: Thu, 09 March 2006 06:02]

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Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1584 is a reply to message #1583] Thu, 09 March 2006 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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e.g my personal webpage on yahoo has got google's pagerank 8. the page without any references.
... ?

Btw, what do you mean by PR?
page rank or public relations?
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1586 is a reply to message #1584] Thu, 09 March 2006 07:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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also, according to some sources, google's pagerank is higher when a referencing link comes from a higher pagerank page. That means it is better to be listed as a link on a "general" links page than on a separate article.
Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1587 is a reply to message #1586] Thu, 09 March 2006 07:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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if you google: "c++" the result is:

Quote:


C++ Language Tutorial
Complete tutorial from cplusplus.com that covers from basics up to object oriented programming.
www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ - 16k - Cached - Similar pages

cplusplus.com - The C++ resources network
Information, Documentation, Reference, Sourcecodes and Forums about C++ programming language.
www.cplusplus.com/ - 13k - Cached - Similar pages

Visual C++ Developer Center
Product information, technical resources, samples and downloads, news and reviews.
msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/ - 41k - Cached - Similar pages


www.cplusplus.com/doc/tutorial/ has got pagerank 6
msdn.microsoft.com/visualc/ has got pagerang 8

8>6? correct. Why then it comes on top?

one more example.
Give just GUI.
result http://www.gui.ie/ page rank 6.

microsoft is referenced everywhere. Millions of articles.
According to your logic microsoft pages must be on top of all search results...

Re: U++ PR or findability, if yes - how? [message #1588 is a reply to message #1587] Thu, 09 March 2006 08:36 Go to previous message
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But if you study both sources you will notice that cpluplus

has got <h1>C++ Language Tutorial</h1>, while microsoft no h1 tags at all!
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