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Home » Community » Coffee corner » What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!!
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17503 is a reply to message #17502] |
Mon, 18 August 2008 14:26   |
captainc
Messages: 278
Registered: December 2006
Location: New Jersey, USA
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Experienced Member |
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Concerning the MIT license (From Wikipedia):
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The license can be modified to suit particular needs. For example, the Free Software Foundation agreed in 1998 to use a modified MIT License for ncurses, which adds this clause:[2]
Except as contained in this notice, the name(s) of the above copyright holders shall not be used in advertising or otherwise to promote the sale, use or other dealings in this Software without prior written authorization.
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What are the developers' thoughts on this statement? Is it necessary to have it in the license? This is a key difference between BSD and MIT.
BSD States:
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* * Neither the name of the <organization> nor the
* names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products
* derived from this software without specific prior written permission.
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[Updated on: Mon, 18 August 2008 14:28] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17504 is a reply to message #17503] |
Mon, 18 August 2008 14:37 |
gprentice
Messages: 260
Registered: November 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Experienced Member |
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amrein, I don't follow your conclusions about the BSD license. Wikipedia also describes BSD . I *think* "the license" is describing the use of U++ source - in either source or binary form, and does not apply to TheIDE binary itself. Any binaries distributed by U++ need their own license.
If ultimate++ was released with BSD license it might look something like this
<part1>
Copyright (c) 2008, Ultimate++, Mirek Fidler et al...
All right reserved
<part2>
Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met <list of conditions>
<part3> disclaimer
The list of conditions requires that re-distributions of either source or binary must include all of part1, part2, part3 verbatim - part1, part2, part3 we call "the license". "the license" refers explicitly to U++ authors.
In the second of the 3 conditions, there is an implied part (in italics) as follows
Re-distributions of source codein binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice ... etc.
"Re-distributions" means - distributed by me, or my users or my users users etc.
As far as I can see, this means
1. If I distribute object code, executable code or anything at all (binary) that was built (partially or entirely) from any or all of the U++ source, whether modified or not, "the license" must be distributed with it, including explicit reference to U++ authors. I must require that all subsequent distribution of such binary by anyone, must be accompanied by "the license". I can ban re-distribution of the binary by my users if I want.
2. I don't have to release source code, either my own or that derived from U++. If I re-distribute source that is derived from U++ source (modified or un-modified), it must retain "the license".
Open to interpretation
"the license" says
<Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided ... 3 conditions are met>
Does this mean that if I want to distribute source, my users can also distribute and use the source (in binary or source form) without payment of royalties to me? Does the license permit me to apply additional restrictions to the use of source I supply - such as additional copyrights and licenses?
What does "source code must retain the license" mean - does "the license" have to be embedded in every source file.
MIT license doesn't seem to require keeping the disclaimer.
I vote we get some clarification on these things before changing the license and then try to make the license itself clearer and not open to interpretation.
Graeme
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17506 is a reply to message #17505] |
Mon, 18 August 2008 17:46 |
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amrein
Messages: 278
Registered: August 2008
Location: France
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Experienced Member |
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| gprentice wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 14:37 |
...
As far as I can see, this means
1. If I distribute object code, executable code or anything at all (binary) that was built (partially or entirely) from any or all of the U++ source, whether modified or not, "the license" must be distributed with it, including explicit reference to U++ authors. I must require that all subsequent distribution of such binary by anyone, must be accompanied by "the license". I can ban re-distribution of the binary by my users if I want.
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In the U++ BSD like license, they tell you: This License does not apply to any software that links to the libraries provided by this software (statically or dynamically), but only to the software provided.
This license make a difference between "TheIDE + tools + U++" (the software provided), "Your application" (Your source - U++) and the provided libraries ( U++ ). It doesn't apply to "Your source" but only to "TheIDE + tools + U++". Your are not distributing "TheIDE + tools + U++" but only "Your source" + "U++".
So, the question could be, should you acknowledge for U++, a part of the wall "Software provided"? In this license, nothing force you to. BSD license don't clearly state that a part should style be covered by the BSD license. It only talks about "TheIDE + tools + U++" combinations (the software provided).
As long as an interpretation is possible, you can't force the receiver to follow yours. You can't have something smaller than a source file (we don't care about not saved bytes in computer memory). You could think: The only way to prevent this issue to happen is to include the (c) and a reference for the licence in each source file. Like this, all source files are protected from redistribution without BSD license acknowledgement. But even if you put the license into each files, the problem is back if someone take part of the source code and add it in his own source file.
Note: There's no (c) nor BSD licence reference into the Ultimate++ source files. Only one file with the license for the wall provided software (TheIDE + tools + U++).
To resolve this, GNU ask you to add the (c) and reference into each covered files. Their licenses (LGPL & GPL) state clearly the difference between part and complete source and cover them both.
The MIT license tell you that the wall software and also part of it are still covered by the MIT license. As you can see, they make the distinction between part and complete source to prevent this issue.
I am missing something?
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2. I don't have to release source code, either my own or that derived from U++. If I re-distribute source that is derived from U++ source (modified or un-modified), it must retain "the license".
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This is where the problem is. BSD and BSD like licenses don't make a difference between part and wall source code or binary. They tell you to keep the license + copyright if you distribute the source and to acknowledge if you distribute the binary only. U++ libraries is a part of the provided software. See my previous explanation about how the license apply to a part of the source.
| captainc wrote on Mon, 18 August 2008 14:53 |
I have a second question:
What do the devs think about relicensing? Do they want to prevent derivative works from being completely relicensed?
Relicensing:
Option 1: Any derivaties (additions or modifications) of the software can be relicensed without restriction.
Option 2: Derivatives of the software must contain the same license. Proprietary additions, in the form of new add-on modules, to the software can be licensed however you want.
One question to answer that will influence this is: Do you want persistence in derivative works? There are good and bad sides to this. Ie. It could be an under-performing derivative with your name on it. Or it could be a great piece of software with your name on it!
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This is why I prefer the official BSD license (=Don't keep the copyright if you make a modification in our software).
I'm not answering your question. I'm not one of the copyright holder, only a messenger.
[Updated on: Mon, 18 August 2008 18:11] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17527 is a reply to message #17524] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 14:17 |
bytefield
Messages: 210
Registered: December 2007
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Experienced Member |
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I vote for MIT license because it is most permissive than others... you can modify the source code and release it with a new copyright and a new license. You have to retain copyright in source code just when you do a redistribution of full copy.
What about public domain and forgetting all license stuff and incompatibility? See SQLite copyright for example.
BTW, i like sqlite source files...
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** The author disclaims copyright to this source code. In place of
** a legal notice, here is a blessing:
**
** May you do good and not evil.
** May you find forgiveness for yourself and forgive others.
** May you share freely, never taking more than you give.
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It is free to our conscience how we use the source...
Maybe after we clarify which license is better for Upp and for us, we should re-post this pool for people who answered with " I don't know" to have chance to choose a license...
cdabbd745f1234c2751ee1f932d1dd75
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17536 is a reply to message #17524] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 16:25 |
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amrein
Messages: 278
Registered: August 2008
Location: France
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Experienced Member |
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BSD license yes. BSD like license = status unknown. On the U++ website you can read BSD licence but this is not the official licence but a modified one.
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yet item 2 seems to require distribution of source ??
amrein said this
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BSD license = Do whatever you want. If you release unmodified source, you must keep the copyright and license in the source. If you only release an unmodified TheIDE+U++ binary, you must tell about this license + keep the copyright. You can release modified TheIDE+U++ (binary or source) with whatever license you want but you must change the copyright.
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I haven't got the slightest idea how you can conclude this when the BSD license says this
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Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions are met:
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i.e. the terms of distribution are the same whether the source is modified or not - and - the only requirement is that the license is included verbatim/unmodified - meaning that the distributor can charge money for it if he wants and I cannot ask for royalties.
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In the U++ BSD-like licence, they give you the right to deal in the Software without restriction. They make a difference between "Software provided" = "TheIDE+tools+U++", "libraries provided by this software" = "U++", "Your own source".
If you copy the software provided (src or bin) => "copyright notice and this permission notice shall be included.."
If you modify or merge the source => Well, no part of the license restrict your right. They already give you all right "without restriction" at the beginning
This is an English language issue. "Software" has no plural. And when you say "source code", you don't know if it means the entire tarball or part of the source code.
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Also, what do you mean by "wall software" - I don't understand this term.
Graeme
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Entire software. The complete tarball. "TheIDE+tools+U++".
[Updated on: Wed, 20 August 2008 03:44] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: What license Ultimate++ should use? Tell us!!! [message #17538 is a reply to message #17537] |
Tue, 19 August 2008 19:07 |
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amrein
Messages: 278
Registered: August 2008
Location: France
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Experienced Member |
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| cbpporter wrote on Tue, 19 August 2008 17:21 |
So let me see if I understand: with BSD, MIT and MPL we can distribute our software that links with U++ libraries under any license we desire. And we are not required to acknowledge in about box/copyright/documentation that the software was developed with U++ (I will do that anyway). And with BSD we can promote our product as being written with U++, but we can't promote our fork of U++ as being developed by U++ team.
With LGPL we can do the same as long as we keep dynamic linking (which is not yet possible), and with GPL we have to go GPL and opensource any software developed with U++.
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Well yes.
[Updated on: Tue, 19 August 2008 19:11] Report message to a moderator |
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