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Home » Community » Coffee corner » U++ public image - please read and discuss...
| U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1102] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 17:32  |
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mirek
Messages: 14105
Registered: November 2005
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Ultimate Member |
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In order to improve public image of U++, there are several claims I would like/need to be commented/tested by the community:
- "The structure of the website and navigation is all boasting how ultimate clever we are. People see that childish."
- "Website should be more friendly. The accents must be: We serve humanity by delivering powerful things in a simple way. And everyone who reads the web pages must feel that spirit."
- "We need more features in U++ library"
- "We need more features in TheIDE"
- "Default forum design/layout repels people, it should be more similar to the website (blueish)."
- "Website design repels people"
Please feel free to add your own suggestions to the list.
And one nobody argues with, so I am adding that here just for completeness:
- "U++ needs better documentation"
however, the question is, do we need more
- "tutorials"
or
- "concept overviews"
or
- "reference"
?
Also, if you find some documentation topic worth special attention, feel free to post it here so we can make it priority.
Mirek
[Updated on: Mon, 20 February 2006 19:16] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1106 is a reply to message #1102] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 18:52  |
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fudadmin
Messages: 1321
Registered: November 2005
Location: Kaunas, Lithuania
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Ultimate Contributor
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also have a look and read this as example:
BTW, read about the founder...
And, btw, they are using AGG...
About REBOL Technologies
Our Mission
We dramatically improve the way people and applications communicate, collaborate, share, and process information over the Internet.
Our Premise
We believe that modern distributed applications do not need to be large, complicated, and expensive.
In fact, we believe that when it comes to software, smaller is better. Smaller software is cheaper to develop, more efficient to operate, and easier to update and improve.
We believe that the X-Internet can make web applications a lot faster, a lot smarter, and run on a lot more devices in the future.
We believe that an open collaborative development community is key in creating and expanding on the fundamental technology and inspiring an exciting variety of applications and methods.
We believe that the Internet is always changing, and that the more flexible and lightweight your technology, the more rapidly you can adapt and benefit from change.
http://www.rebol.com/mission.html
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1109 is a reply to message #1102] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 20:43 |
jadeite
Messages: 42
Registered: January 2006
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Member |
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 Hey, you 2 settle down. 
It is interesting how the forum page is a continual topic of discussion. I personally like the blue/gray colors, but it is a matter of taste, and not critical.
I'll have to think about the question some more, but on the opposite end, 1 of the things that drew me towards checking out Ultimate++ was:
-Has an IDE with layout designer
-Template-heavy, which is slightly unique to GUI frameworks.
Then, what made me look even deeper was the fact that even complicated apps (like the text editor) are VERY responsive to resizing. I mean, when I grab the edge of the app frame and resize it, it just flows. This is something you only see in Delphi and MFC apps.
The name Ultimate++ seems fine to me. You remember it.
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1111 is a reply to message #1109] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 21:04 |
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mirek
Messages: 14105
Registered: November 2005
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Ultimate Member |
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| jadeite wrote on Mon, 20 February 2006 14:43 |
Hey, you 2 settle down.
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Oh, no, this was not supposed as "he is right - he is wrong" flamewar, just the reality check.
I am definitely ready to change things, but for some of them I would like to hear more opinions.
As for U++ improvements itself, they will definitely be happening. They always did. And IMHO, development was and is fast.
However this thread is about possible drawbacks in public image - I can deal with engineering issues, but I am not PR guy.
Mirek
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1114 is a reply to message #1102] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 21:53 |
zsolt
Messages: 698
Registered: December 2005
Location: Budapest, Hungary
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Contributor |
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About documentation:
Basic documentation found on the website was enough for me.
With the lack of real reference, I'm using doxygen generated documentation. It is very useful, you can browse it very fast using the many cross-links. And you can read sources if the name of a method or function is not descriptive enough.
My personal opinion is that the documentation should be something similar with some descriptions.
Or you can check Qt's docs.
Website:
It is not childish, basically it is good, I think. Maybe it could be good to put a screenshot to the examples.
I think it could be a good idea to write something about the incredible productivity of programmers using upp. And simplicity of course.
Forum:
The default theme for guests is awful. When you login, the default is OK.
PR:
It is needed to write a press release about the release of upp-602 and describing it's strengths.
Mainly: simplicity, productivity, cross-platform, BSD-license, Ide with debugger, layout designer, fast build-technology, etc.
The text should be written (or at least edited) by a native english person.
This press release should be sent to all major open-source sites.
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1126 is a reply to message #1114] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 23:14 |
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fudadmin
Messages: 1321
Registered: November 2005
Location: Kaunas, Lithuania
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Ultimate Contributor
Administrator |
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| zsolt wrote on Mon, 20 February 2006 15:53 |
About documentation:
Basic documentation found on the website was enough for me.
With the lack of real reference, I'm using doxygen generated documentation. It is very useful, you can browse it very fast using the many cross-links. And you can read sources if the name of a method or function is not descriptive enough.
My personal opinion is that the documentation should be something similar with some descriptions.
Or you can check Qt's docs.
Website:
It is not childish, basically it is good, I think. Maybe it could be good to put a screenshot to the examples.
I think it could be a good idea to write something about the incredible productivity of programmers using upp. And simplicity of course.
Forum:
The default theme for guests is awful. When you login, the default is OK.
PR:
It is needed to write a press release about the release of upp-602 and describing it's strengths.
Mainly: simplicity, productivity, cross-platform, BSD-license, Ide with debugger, layout designer, fast build-technology, etc.
The text should be written (or at least edited) by a native english person.
This press release should be sent to all major open-source sites.
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Yes, simplicity and productivity. But that should be accented, stressed, pressed etc. on the upp.sourceforge.net not only in one article which will be forgotten after a week or so!
Now the home page of U++ advertises for months:
| Quote: |
C++ has the potential to be the most productive language in computing history. Its multiparadigm nature allows the effective development of almost any kind of software, from low level driver code to very high level business logic abstractions.
Unfortunately this potential has been left untapped, due to the lack of truly effective libraries, causing C++ evolution to be stuck somewhere between STL-iterator adaptors and smart-pointers. Ultimate++ finally uncovers this potential....
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Who after reading this "untapped" simplicity of U++?
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1128 is a reply to message #1126] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 23:27 |
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mirek
Messages: 14105
Registered: November 2005
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Ultimate Member |
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| Quote: |
Yes, simplicity and productivity. But that should be accented, stressed, pressed etc. on the upp.sourceforge.net not only in one article which will be forgotten after a week or so!
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Why not. But we definitely need that article. Nobody says it cannot be recycled in www (I have already done that with the Overview).
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
C++ has the potential to be the most productive language in computing history. Its multiparadigm nature allows the effective development of almost any kind of software, from low level driver code to very high level business logic abstractions.
Unfortunately this potential has been left untapped, due to the lack of truly effective libraries, causing C++ evolution to be stuck somewhere between STL-iterator adaptors and smart-pointers. Ultimate++ finally uncovers this potential....
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Who after reading this "untapped" simplicity of U++?
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I have no problem with improving that info. We have been "developing" frontpage text as community effort for more than month, but there is always a room for improvement. (If I remember well, that "untapped" phrase was suggested by Jan Wilmans and most of us liked it
However, this is too important for any quick fix posted over private message - any change there must go through another community review process.
You are welcome to start new forum topic with this mission.
Mirek
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1133 is a reply to message #1128] |
Mon, 20 February 2006 23:54 |
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fudadmin
Messages: 1321
Registered: November 2005
Location: Kaunas, Lithuania
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Ultimate Contributor
Administrator |
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| luzr wrote on Mon, 20 February 2006 17:27 |
| Quote: |
Yes, simplicity and productivity. But that should be accented, stressed, pressed etc. on the upp.sourceforge.net not only in one article which will be forgotten after a week or so!
|
Why not. But we definitely need that article. Nobody says it cannot be recycled in www (I have already done that with the Overview).
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
C++ has the potential to be the most productive language in computing history. Its multiparadigm nature allows the effective development of almost any kind of software, from low level driver code to very high level business logic abstractions.
Unfortunately this potential has been left untapped, due to the lack of truly effective libraries, causing C++ evolution to be stuck somewhere between STL-iterator adaptors and smart-pointers. Ultimate++ finally uncovers this potential....
|
Who after reading this "untapped" simplicity of U++?
|
I have no problem with improving that info. We have been "developing" frontpage text as community effort for more than month, but there is always a room for improvement. (If I remember well, that "untapped" phrase was suggested by Jan Wilmans and most of us liked it
However, this is too important for any quick fix posted over private message - any change there must go through another community review process.
You are welcome to start new forum topic with this mission.
Mirek
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It's not the word "untapped". Sentences and their wording sound like from philosophy lecture...
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| Re: U++ public image - please read and discuss... [message #1146 is a reply to message #1128] |
Tue, 21 February 2006 13:49 |
gprentice
Messages: 260
Registered: November 2005
Location: New Zealand
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Experienced Member |
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| luzr wrote on Tue, 21 February 2006 11:27 |
| Quote: |
Yes, simplicity and productivity. But that should be accented, stressed, pressed etc. on the upp.sourceforge.net not only in one article which will be forgotten after a week or so!
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Why not. But we definitely need that article. Nobody says it cannot be recycled in www (I have already done that with the Overview).
| Quote: |
| Quote: |
C++ has the potential to be the most productive language in computing history. Its multiparadigm nature allows the effective development of almost any kind of software, from low level driver code to very high level business logic abstractions.
Unfortunately this potential has been left untapped, due to the lack of truly effective libraries, causing C++ evolution to be stuck somewhere between STL-iterator adaptors and smart-pointers. Ultimate++ finally uncovers this potential....
|
Who after reading this "untapped" simplicity of U++?
|
I have no problem with improving that info. We have been "developing" frontpage text as community effort for more than month, but there is always a room for improvement. (If I remember well, that "untapped" phrase was suggested by Jan Wilmans and most of us liked it
However, this is too important for any quick fix posted over private message - any change there must go through another community review process.
You are welcome to start new forum topic with this mission.
Mirek
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| Quote: |
- "The structure of the website and navigation is all boasting how ultimate clever we are. People see that childish."
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Regarding the above sentence from the original post in this thread - it's good that the UPP website now says that "comparisons are tricky" when comparing U++ to other toolkits, and that you've tried to be fair (I hope this is true). The website also says U++ achieves RAD through "smart and aggressive"
C++. It's fair enough to say this if it's justified but it's open to the "boasting" criticism, though most people seem to think they write smart C++. Maybe "innovative" would be better than "smart".
Regarding the "C++ being most productive language in history ... " paragraphs - they honestly makes me squirm - though I'm not sure how much my opinion's worth. I notice that Bjarne Stroustrup says there are way too few proposals for the C++ library and way too many for the core language.
There are many application domains other than GUI and SQL/databases so U++ is not the answer to the prayers of all C++ programmers. The statements pretty much trash all other C++ libraries, yet there's a ton of brain power and peer reviewing goes into boost libraries. What is so effective about the U++ libraries compared to other C++ libraries? I doubt that many people would agree that C++ evolution is stuck.
In my opinion it would be better to say something like ...
Ultimate++ is a radical and innovative GUI toolkit whose number one priority is programmer productivity. C++ is a great programming language but C++ programmers are sometimes hampered by the lack of effective libraries. U++ libraries enable genuine productivity gains with shorter development times and greatly reduced application source code size. U++ includes a full featured GUI library and an optimised STL replacement (the NTL).
Phrases like "most productive in history" and "U++ finally uncovers this potential" are hype that make me uncomfortable. Until you get to know U++ (and I still don't) it's far from obvious that U++ libraries really are more effective than other libraries (It's certainly a very big claim) and the average person would be very skeptical. Hype will only reinforce this feeling and give the impression that U++ developers are one-eyed zealots.
Now don't go changing the web page just coz I said I didn't like it . I'm only one opinion and I honestly have no clue about the productivity gains that are claimed as I haven't used U++ anywhere as much as I'd like yet.
Graeme
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