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Home » U++ TheIDE » U++ TheIDE: Other Features Wishlist and/or Bugs » why cant i edit an image a second time?
| why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20177] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 02:47  |
abductee
Messages: 22
Registered: June 2007
Location: Germany
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Promising Member |
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hi guys...
its been a while...
anyway. i'm back and i played a little bit around.
so, my question is this:
in the image-editor or layout-editor:
once i have layouted something or created an image and compiled
i only get to see the preprocessed stuff. the only workaround is to restart theide. there seems to be no obvious neither obscure way to edit an image twice.
halp! its frustrating.
/abductee
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20185 is a reply to message #20183] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 11:24  |
cbpporter
Messages: 1401
Registered: September 2007
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Ultimate Contributor |
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You're welcome!
And yes, you are right. TheIDE has a lot of usability issues. Some minor, but also a lot of major ones which I'm sure contribute to scaring people away from U++, which is a shame since it hides both TheIDE's and the toolkit's great functionality. While U++ is different and often reinvents the wheel, the end result is generally better than the original. But this is not the case for TheIDE, which defies most expectations from IDEs and also common and general Windows application expectations. People have to learn these new conventions if they are to use TheIDE successfully. While a lot could be improved, I'm afraid that the primary focus is on the toolkit, especially since TheIDE gets it's job done in the state it is. It's hard to get time for improving the somewhat impalpable notion of usability. It is not the same as witting code, where goals are clear and the algorithms start coming to you once you have aquired enough knowledge and experience. I personally don't have time for TheIDE, but sometimes I'm really tempted to take a couple of days off from work and fix two of the most annoying issues which bug me daily (the mouse wheel tab scroll bug/feautre and the really counterintuitive and convention defying way the Find/Replace dialog works).
On the other hand, TheIDE got a lot of functionality related improvements. It has auto completion which is better than CDT or older versions of Visual Studio (but it doesn't do non package related auto completion yet), and has a competent documentation system which gives similar functionality to doxygen, but is very different. This ties in with your comment related to comment visibility. Since we don't use doxygen (or a lot of comments for that matter  ), such a feature would hardly be included. But if you have a working patch, maybe you can propose an inclusion.
As for the different font rendering, it shouldn't look any different, since U++ uses native Windows out of the box. There is just one caveat though: when supplying font sizes, while the entire Windows, Linux and printing universe uses DPI (even though using DPI on screen is 100% useless and misleading), U++ uses pixel sizes. So if you select somewhere a font of size 12, it will actually look just a little smaller than in the rest of application where you use the same font/size combination. This also effects you if you set up on windows a DPI larger than the default. While you're entire UI will scale accordingly, the scale factor is going to be slightly different yet again from the rest of applications. If you want it to look the same, there is a solution: you must convert your desired size in dots to pixels, and pass that to U++ fonts.
As for user having homegrown forks of U++, I can't give you any statistics on that. Try creating a pool if you're curious. I for one have such changes, quite a number of them, and changing version, SVN revision or installing on a new system is always a pain.
Raul
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20188 is a reply to message #20185] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 12:08 |
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| cbpporter wrote on Tue, 24 February 2009 05:24 |
As for user having homegrown forks of U++, I can't give you any statistics on that. Try creating a pool if you're curious. I for one have such changes, quite a number of them, and changing version, SVN revision or installing on a new system is always a pain.
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I use my version too  But I'll commit my changes soon (I know I told so many times  ). I mean here James' docking system. Finally I have more time I can spend on upp. I'm also experimenting with new tabs features. After this I would like to add searching for file in files panel. It's very hard to find anything when package has lot of files. I'd like to add sorting ability as well. I also think something like quicksearch from VS 2010 would be very cool.
What are your changes? Maybe we could add them to the main tree if they're useful.
PS: Could you release the newest Skulpture theme. I use it in my apps
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20190 is a reply to message #20188] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 12:40 |
cbpporter
Messages: 1401
Registered: September 2007
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Ultimate Contributor |
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| unodgs wrote on Tue, 24 February 2009 13:08 |
What are your changes? Maybe we could add them to the main tree if they're useful.
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Well every time I had an issue I reported on this forum. Sometimes there was a bug that got fixed, sometimes I got some nice tips for workarounds, but there where cases where I got left to my own devices. Every time that happened I had to do small changes. I'm running with modified tree control (actually OptionTree), xml node, label, button, edit field, menus capable of UTF16 surrogates, Unix text rendering with some substitution and and Arabic renderer which is getting very slowly better (but I'm not sure if a native speaker could read it yet and also the entire GUI should be mirrored, not just text), hacks for DPI and some deeper yet subtle changes, like eliminating windows.h and most std c and c++ library from most compilation units. If my own SVN ever dies, I'm pretty much screwed (it happened before), but now I have backups and merging for my own use is annoying but doable after the first time.
Because of the probability of inclusion being so low, I'm slowly migrating all my changes to a format where U++ sources are no longer modified, and then adding stuff is going to be as easy as including a package. But as always, I have very little time to fiddle with stuff which actually works, but is too deeply inserted in U++ core libraries for it's own good.
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PS: Could you release the newest Skulpture theme. I use it in my apps
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Actually, I started working on new version. It is about hallway done. It has 2 new features:
1. Incorporating visual changes from new Skulpture 0.2.2 (which looks a lot better for some widgets).
2. I no longer use image lists from TheIDE. I have a folder with pngs with a predefined name and a very simple ini file for hotspots. The idea is while I'm doing the first version, I would like other people which are quite the artists to create some nice themes, but I don't want them to have to deal with TheIDE and also write code to create the theme. New workflow is going to be Photoshop/Flash + Notepad. Also Theme code is much shorter. The only reason why it is still delayed because it's so annoying extracting all the looks from KDE4 which is the only WM capable of using the original Skulpture. But since you brought it up, I'll try to finish ASAP.
PS: Seeing the subject of this thread, I'm motivated to go through my past mails and compile a list with issues I've encountered and an updated status report for reference. I'll try to do this as soon as I have some free time, and after updated Skulpture.
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20191 is a reply to message #20177] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 13:04 |
abductee
Messages: 22
Registered: June 2007
Location: Germany
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Promising Member |
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first of all:
you where right about the fonts, i dint realize thet some of my options where not saved because i had tow instances of upp open...
(some of the brackets are green... greeen. i have cleartype enabled... sheesh) anyway.
second of all: the Skulpture thingy is a step in the right direction. the scrollbars are a bit big and the hovermenu-color blue is tooo dark. ( for my taste ) anyway, i am as a matter of fact experimenting with it:
and another question arose:
http://abductee.untergrund.net/howtopaintthisarea.jpg
:)
also: how can i prevent the active tab from beeing 2 pixels larger than the rest?
"It has auto completion which is better than CDT or older versions of Visual Studio" i hate to break this to you... but it's nowhere near 'Visual Assist' from wholetomato.(http://wholetomato.com/) they really have put the hammer down in terms of usuability. everything is where you expect it, but most of all: you are not bothered by it.
and belive me, it's really not about features. if one ore two features are missing -> no big deal. but if you have to escape from things that you do not want all the time its just frustrating. (worst example: the paperclip in word :)
as for the completion: it simply has to be on the tab key, as you are used to it from the linux-shell. you just cannot put that on two keys ( actually 4, since you have to pick the right one ) and expect people to see "how cool" the feature is.
if you, for example ave a TabCtrl named 'mtab' and type 'm' - 't'
this is the moment where a simple press on tab should be enough to get 'mtab'. instead you have to press <Ctrl>+<Space> then <VK_DOWN> and then <Return>. that are 4 keys to get 2 letters. (in practise mostly more because the highlighted classneme on the left-side makes me press <VK_RIGHT> wich messes the whole thing up becuse then i'm in the next line ... i hope you see my point.
as for the homebrew improvements:
http://abductee.org/xdegui <-- i have an won version of the CodeEditor. i use a similar technique as displayed in the CodeMetric Example to parse just in time, and then i feed back all the function names into the highlighting. so if i misspell a function name( since i do tend not to use the completion) it does not get another color. (ok, Visual Assist does it more sopisticated since it also knows 'hey this symol is not yet defined' and so on ) so yeah, this could be an improvement.
anyway: to finish up with the VisualAssist comparison:
the main point of their work seems to be not to annoy the user with to much features. and EVEN IF something pops up that you do not understand/want: if you just keep doing what you where about to do, Visual Assist dosn't interact. that sounds more complicated than it is... they simply just understand simplicity and know when to shut up, as i do now :)
/abductee.
p.s.: i still have no answer to my other posting, and i'd really like to see fonts like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucida_Grande in upp apps, is there really so simple way? :/
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #20193 is a reply to message #20191] |
Tue, 24 February 2009 13:22 |
cbpporter
Messages: 1401
Registered: September 2007
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Ultimate Contributor |
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| Quote: |
second of all: the Skulpture thingy is a step in the right direction. the scrollbars are a bit big and the hovermenu-color blue is tooo dark. ( for my taste ) anyway, i am as a matter of fact experimenting with it:
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That screenshot looks kind of wrong and based on an old Skulpture. Then again, I don't remember which version I uploaded last, my own version that I use is 99% production ready from visual point of view, but buggy under Linux. And no, unfortunately you can't paint hat area with Chameleon yet.
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also: how can i prevent the active tab from beeing 2 pixels larger than the rest?
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In Skulture you can't, it's a design feature of the theme so that active tab look visually distinct. If you don't like it, you can contact the artist of the theme. I'm just porting it to U++ because I love the way it looks, and the qr-gtk bridge does a poor job of using that theme, and that still doesn't make it available under Windows.
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"It has auto completion which is better than CDT or older versions of Visual Studio" i hate to break this to you... but it's nowhere near 'Visual Assist' from wholetomato.(http://wholetomato.com/) they really have put the hammer down in terms of usuability.
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Well, I did not mention Visual Assist, which is an addon for Visual Studio and absolutely mops the floor with both Visual Studio and TheIDE. But when comparing with unmodified Visual Studio, I would say TheIDE is better. Maybe you've got some macro intensive code which can confuse TheIDE.
Well you have to have a little patience. Anyway, you need to install those fonts under Windows or Linux using the standard way for that system, and U++ will be able to load them. There is no way to load a font out of a file without incorporating it in you operating systems font list.
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #21325 is a reply to message #20338] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 11:32 |
mrjt
Messages: 705
Registered: March 2007
Location: London
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Contributor |
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| cbpporter wrote on Thu, 12 March 2009 12:07 |
| cbpporter wrote on Tue, 24 February 2009 09:30 |
Ctrl-T is the default key to change between representations for both image editor and layout designer. If you run your application while the image editor or layout designer is in an active tab they will automatically be changed to the text representation to allow debugging. So press Ctr-T or do as I do: I always switch the tab to one containing source code.
On the other hand, default switching to text representation should be disabled IMO. Average users will not care about debugging image or layout macros, and the issue with users not knowing about Ctrl-T comes up every one or two months. Or at least a popup the first time this happens, informing the user and having a check box with “do not show this again”.
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I think that the right solution for this problem should be adding two buttons in the layout/image editor above the column lists. One for editor mode, and one for text mode. And switching to text mode would add a header with the same two buttons over the code editor. Or maybe the buttons should be on the toolbar in editor mode.
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I actually do use the text version of .lay fairly often. The issue here is more that TheIDE automatically switches to text mode too often IMO, I see no reason why it should do this during debugging for instance. The text version should only be visible in two situations IMO:
1) User selects text mode
2) A parsing error, in which case a prominent error should be displayed too.
What I really want is button that temporarily disables layout springs in the Layout Designed so that I can resize a window without having to reset them all!
| luzr |
Maybe you can commit it as branch for now...
Maybe I could work on it a bit too...
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There is already a branch for this called something like 2008.1-nv, but unodgs hasn't committed for a long time. Why are you afraid of commitment Uno? 
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #21326 is a reply to message #21325] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 11:47 |
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| mrjt wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 05:32 |
There is already a branch for this called something like 2008.1-nv, but unodgs hasn't committed for a long time. Why are you afraid of commitment Uno?
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Because I started to do all my modification on main trunk to avoid merging. But I will move all those changes to new vision so everyone could start using docking system. I just have to finish few small things.
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #21327 is a reply to message #21323] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 12:50 |
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| luzr wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 03:53 |
Maybe you can commit it as branch for now...
Maybe I could work on it a bit too...
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I somehow overlookd your answer..
Yes, I'll do so - it's in acceptable stage now.
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add searching for file in files panel. It's very hard to find anything when package has lot of files.
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I guess this is now ok with new navigator, right?
Mirek
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Yes and no In navigator the problem is that clikcing on a file in top part of navigator dosn't activate this file. I have to click on a method from bottom part of navigator.
I was thinkg lately about navigating and this is what I do:
to find a method in current file I press CTRL-G (F2 in my ide)
to find if a method exists I use navigator.
I'm almost never intrested of listing all class methods. Code+space should show me possible options.
That is why I would remove top part of navigator with files and packages and integrate it with the bottom part. When you click at found file in navigator this file should be open. When you click on method you should be taken to this method and optionaly help in the bottom part of navigator should be open for that method (otherwise there is no bottom part).
Next to find text box I would add one more switch - to activate / deactivate class view. In class view we should have two panels - top one with class names that matches search criteria and bottom with all methods listed for this class.
Ctrl-G and Ctrl-J would just open navigator in a dialog window and with preselected filter (as it is now - global search or local) or I would even make it one with global scope.
And last thing - Alt - J should be possible with Ctrl + LMB.
Then navigation in ide would be excelent
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #21334 is a reply to message #21328] |
Wed, 13 May 2009 17:53 |
mrjt
Messages: 705
Registered: March 2007
Location: London
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Contributor |
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| luzr wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 12:32 |
| mrjt wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 05:32 |
I actually do use the text version of .lay fairly often. The issue here is more that TheIDE automatically switches to text mode too often IMO, I see no reason why it should do this during debugging for instance.
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I guess, technically, when debugger says you are at line 33 of MyApp.lay, you do not have many choices...
Mirek
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That's not really what I meant, as that would be a very rare scenario.
What I mean is that when the project is executing it is impossible to use layout designer or image editor. I think this is where the confusion comes from since it is the only time users are likely to see the text version unless they know about the switching option.
In particular not being able to use the Layout Designer while the app is running is a pain, as you sometimes notice that a small tweak is necessary but can't use the designer until you've closed the app.
And since we're on the subject, it there and easy way to set the tab-order using the layout designer?
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| Re: why cant i edit an image a second time? [message #21370 is a reply to message #21334] |
Fri, 15 May 2009 20:43 |
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mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005
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Ultimate Member |
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| mrjt wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 11:53 |
| luzr wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 12:32 |
| mrjt wrote on Wed, 13 May 2009 05:32 |
I actually do use the text version of .lay fairly often. The issue here is more that TheIDE automatically switches to text mode too often IMO, I see no reason why it should do this during debugging for instance.
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I guess, technically, when debugger says you are at line 33 of MyApp.lay, you do not have many choices...
Mirek
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That's not really what I meant, as that would be a very rare scenario.
What I mean is that when the project is executing it is impossible to use layout designer or image editor. I think this is where the confusion comes from since it is the only time users are likely to see the text version unless they know about the switching option.
In particular not being able to use the Layout Designer while the app is running is a pain, as you sometimes notice that a small tweak is necessary but can't use the designer until you've closed the app.
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OK, I have tried my best Please check.
Mirek
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