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Home » Community » Coffee corner » What next?
Re: What next? [message #45665 is a reply to message #45662] Sun, 20 December 2015 10:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13428
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Mindtraveller wrote on Sun, 20 December 2015 10:00
I guess it is time we (U++ users) should help Mirek.

1. First of all, we must update comparison on U++ site adding more comparisons showing more cases of U++ usage vs Qt/wxWidgets. Comparisons must be 'honest' even if U++ shows little/no advantage in the particular scenario.

2. Second, we must start writing 'U++ red book' showing methodology and techniques of different aspects of U++ programming. Especially those which are very different from widely used ones.
This is something very different from U++ help. It is more a teaching book than a reference.
I believe this is something U++ needs a lot. U++ is very hard to learn mostly because the most of knowledge is scattered among this forum and is hard to find.
[/code]

Well, the idea always was that 'reference' contains all that knowledge in form of simple examples...

Mean

a) teaching book might take 'reference' as sort of outline for 'red book'
b) it would be worth to somehow gather all issues not covered there

[code]
3. Each U++ user should write 1-2-3 or more articles on different interesting aspects of U++, preferably one in it's own language and the second one in English. Topics include: new U++ features (for the recent year), Rainbow/Mac/Android compatibility, Core containers, etc.

This is really something we (users) may do without passing it on to Mirek.


It would be great. I am not so sure about other languages than English, it proved rather hard to maintain.

Anyway, for the best effect, I would propose publishing articles elsewhere first (codeproject?). It is simple to move it to our website later.

I believe that something like that would have the most impact of all.

The source of inspiration can easily be examples/reference...
Re: What next? [message #45666 is a reply to message #45663] Sun, 20 December 2015 11:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mindtraveller is currently offline  Mindtraveller
Messages: 917
Registered: August 2007
Location: Russia, Moscow rgn.
Experienced Contributor

One more thing we should possibly do is to analyze user's opinions on U++.

1. Search Internet for articles/reviews on U++. Then we make, say, google document on all these reviews containing links found.
2. Extract PROs and CONs from actual reviews we gathered.
3. Analyze CONs and PROs and make forum thread on possible ways to remove CONs and tell about PROs to more users.

And one more thing: the links on articles written should also be collected per user and in one place (say, google doc). So that we see some statistics.

[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2015 11:30]

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Re: What next? [message #45670 is a reply to message #45666] Sun, 20 December 2015 21:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mr_ped is currently offline  mr_ped
Messages: 816
Registered: November 2005
Location: Czech Republic - Praha
Experienced Contributor

Mindtraveller wrote on Sun, 20 December 2015 11:21
One more thing we should possibly do is to analyze user's opinions on U++.

1. Search Internet for articles/reviews on U++. Then we make, say, google document on all these reviews containing links found.
2. Extract PROs and CONs from actual reviews we gathered.
3. Analyze CONs and PROs and make forum thread on possible ways to remove CONs and tell about PROs to more users.

And one more thing: the links on articles written should also be collected per user and in one place (say, google doc). So that we see some statistics.


I tried to do "1." few months back, and I didn't found anything really interesting. I think there were like 1-3 blog-like short reviews. Maybe I didn't dig hard enough into search results, but I think it's more like the whole framework is almost invisible to the world (as it happens with SW Smile ... like PHP Nette framework, top quality stuff, yet hardly used outside of CZ).

But if I ever saw some PROs, it usually followed my own list: lean and small codebase (and small download), download was easy to install and compile first example (now even easier with "portable" release).

After that CONs show usually fast: the learning curve kicks in (obviously, it's C++, even my own old source looks alien to me Very Happy ), "mandatory" usage of TheIde, and while U++ is sort of condensed and delivering a lot over small space - it's not as wide as f.e. Qt, lacking thing here and there.

I'm now probably too long here to asses the *real* impact of those things. For me personally the biggest annoyance is debugger (and I rather learned to not need it most of the time), and to include 3rd party libraries in TheIde at source level (I maintain one project with Tesseract OCR lib, included as sources... takes me some 1-2h to update the files and project, as it's not simple "compile everything what's on disc"), and missing refactoring tools (none). Overall I'm quite happy with U++, unfortunately most of the work time I have to develop in other languages and IDEs (android studio :/ ).

Anyway, I think we should try to get some stories from newcomers, they will be probably quite different, and maybe unexpectedly complicated on things we don't see as any problem.
Re: What next? [message #45678 is a reply to message #45670] Mon, 21 December 2015 18:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbpporter is currently offline  cbpporter
Messages: 1400
Registered: September 2007
Ultimate Contributor
For some reason some people perceive calling something "ultimate" as tacky and it is also not easy to google, so we should grep the site and replace Ultimate++ with U++?
Re: What next? [message #45681 is a reply to message #45678] Mon, 21 December 2015 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13428
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
cbpporter wrote on Mon, 21 December 2015 18:07
For some reason some people perceive calling something "ultimate" as tacky and it is also not easy to google, so we should grep the site and replace Ultimate++ with U++?


Actually, I was using just U++ for years, for exactly this reason.

Anyway, the trouble is that U++ is hard to google and also there are (AFAIK) two other open-source libraries called U++.

Also, there is a problem with www domain. (www.uplusplus.com ? weird)

Thus I am open to complete name change.

Mirek
Re: What next? [message #45682 is a reply to message #45622] Mon, 21 December 2015 23:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgifan is currently offline  Sgifan
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Location: France
Member
Concerning naming I find UPP as a name not so bad and really better than ultimate something...

On the question of the web site, please look at juce.com who is another niche C++ framework, they just modernized their web site
Re: What next? [message #45683 is a reply to message #45622] Mon, 21 December 2015 23:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgifan is currently offline  Sgifan
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Location: France
Member
.. and once there is an android version of UPP, it would be cool to have raywenderlich.com doing a tutorial.
They have great visibility for a developer oriented site and following their tutorials is very interesting in general.
Re: What next? [message #45684 is a reply to message #45683] Mon, 21 December 2015 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbpporter is currently offline  cbpporter
Messages: 1400
Registered: September 2007
Ultimate Contributor
I did a tour of the entire site and I think it is pretty good. It could certainly do with some updated content and screenshots, especially the "Overview" tab. And it could do with some modern styling, but I wouldn't turn it into such a modern design with fullscreen images of trustworthy people (OK, maybe we can have one with Mirek Smile ) and laptops.
Re: What next? [message #45685 is a reply to message #45622] Mon, 21 December 2015 23:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgifan is currently offline  Sgifan
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Location: France
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the "features" and the "tutorials" do not have full screen background images and are nonetheless nice and well layed out. And i do not mention the "live coding" in the ide that impressed me already 2 years ago when Julian did the demo ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imkVkRg-geI )

[Updated on: Mon, 21 December 2015 23:59]

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Re: What next? [message #45686 is a reply to message #45685] Mon, 21 December 2015 23:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbpporter is currently offline  cbpporter
Messages: 1400
Registered: September 2007
Ultimate Contributor
Sgifan wrote on Tue, 22 December 2015 00:50
the "feattures" and the "tutorials" do not have full screen background images and are nonetheless nice and well layed out

Yeah, like I said, could do with a bit of styling. A nice selection of fonts and colors on top of Bootstrap 3 style-sheet, with some carousels and JS enabled site elements.

A few hard hitting samples using a pleasant style might be effective: one that shoes how short GUI code is (but people won't understand template layouts and Bar), one that shows the subpixel features of Painter how it works in GUI but as console code too and so on...
Re: What next? [message #45695 is a reply to message #45622] Tue, 22 December 2015 23:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgifan is currently offline  Sgifan
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Location: France
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How would this be done as the UPP website is generated from uppweb and most of the content is qtf formated ?
Re: What next? [message #45696 is a reply to message #45695] Wed, 23 December 2015 07:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
koldo is currently offline  koldo
Messages: 3268
Registered: August 2008
Senior Veteran
Sgifan wrote on Tue, 22 December 2015 23:46
How would this be done as the UPP website is generated from uppweb and most of the content is qtf formated ?
If approved uppweb may have some abilities to change some formating items, like fonts.


Best regards
Iñaki
Re: What next? [message #45697 is a reply to message #45622] Wed, 23 December 2015 15:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sgifan is currently offline  Sgifan
Messages: 37
Registered: February 2010
Location: France
Member
Web designer could easily come up with something nice

index.php?t=getfile&id=4898&private=0

but datas are in .tpp files. that are not so easily accessible...
  • Attachment: sample.png
    (Size: 617.53KB, Downloaded 592 times)

[Updated on: Wed, 23 December 2015 15:14]

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Re: What next? [message #45746 is a reply to message #45697] Fri, 01 January 2016 11:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13428
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
As result of this debate I am now working or planning to work on following things:

- CodeProject articles. First one awaiting approval http://www.codeproject.com/Articles/1068378/Simple-multi-req uest-web-crawler-using-Uplusplus
- Converting allocator to C to get it ready to be publishied (of course, in the process I have found a nice way how to optimize it Smile
- Creating "U++ Core explained" document
- Probably with colaboration with others, U++ Core as library
Re: What next? [message #46035 is a reply to message #45746] Sun, 21 February 2016 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mdelfede is currently offline  mdelfede
Messages: 1285
Registered: September 2007
Senior Contributor
Hi,

I'm cooperating with an Italian electronic magazine, which is (among others) very focused on IOT / embedded development.
We're pushing an arduino-compatible board with some success, and we're planning to provide many android apps to control it.
So, when UPP will be ready for android development, I guess I can write a series of articles about UPP on that magazine,
along with some developed Androids apps.
The magazine is on-paper in Italy, has on-paper associates in Spain and in France, and has an on-line companion in english, so the visibility should be good.

Ciao

Max
Re: What next? [message #46394 is a reply to message #45622] Thu, 05 May 2016 00:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nlneilson is currently offline  nlneilson
Messages: 644
Registered: January 2010
Location: U.S. California. Mojave &...
Contributor
mirek wrote on Thu, 17 December 2015 06:54
OK, so U++ is now better than ever, but still largely ignored.

So I am trying to figure out what to do next.

- I believe I have to write a document about U++ Core and its performance. I guess this one of early detractors from U++ and it should be properly explained why we need (and everybody should) avoid C++ standard library.

Any other ideas or comments?


U++ is probably 'better than ever' but could be 'more better'

"what to do next-write a document" YES 'u++ API'
API (application program interface) is a set of routines, protocols, and tools for building software applications. The API specifies how software components should interact and APIs are used when programming graphical user interface (GUI) components.

Even in win from the command line just entering 'help' will give the 'API' for the dos functions.


"why we need (and everybody should) avoid C++ standard library."

OK, Why should we avoid the C++ standard library ??


The PR to get someone to try u++ is one thing, getting them to stay is something else. Make it easier to get basic answers. Have the README that is now included in the download but blank include basic questions/answers short code examples and a brief explanation of what the function does, in alphabetical order like exit - ends the app or function.

u++ is very good but after not using it or doing any programming for a few years it can be very frustrating just like many new users can be frustrated.

Neil
Re: What next? [message #46496 is a reply to message #46394] Mon, 16 May 2016 11:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
cbpporter is currently offline  cbpporter
Messages: 1400
Registered: September 2007
Ultimate Contributor
Here is another potential obstacle I found for new users.

As I said on another thread, I'm updating my VS to the latest and giving up on the venerable VS2010.

So I googled VS express, installed what I got from the first link. BTW, it installed VS 2015 in a folder called VS 14. Microsoft have been horrible at naming these versions. I don't know why it is so hard for them to name things in a consistent non-confusing way.

I don't know where it should go, in "instant" or "legacy" setup, but I clicked instant and it took forever. This new directory search method is bad, compared to the old registry one.

Anyway, it eventually finished I think and I have no new build method, just the old MSC10 and MSC11.

I'd be surprised if a new user doesn't give up at this point. I'm not a new user but I certainly have given up for now. I'll be using 11 until I update my own detection code to detect this version too. It started from TheIDE detection code and it stops at MSC12.
Re: What next? [message #46500 is a reply to message #46496] Tue, 17 May 2016 09:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
koldo is currently offline  koldo
Messages: 3268
Registered: August 2008
Senior Veteran
Quote:
I don't know where it should go, in "instant" or "legacy" setup, but I clicked instant and it took forever
Yes, I would call it "Automatic" instead of "Instant".

Yesterday I installed a new MSC15 and finally I set the directories by hand, that was easy but not evident as thanks to Microsoft, in different computers the MSC15 directories are different Sad


Best regards
Iñaki
Re: What next? [message #46517 is a reply to message #46500] Thu, 19 May 2016 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13428
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
koldo wrote on Tue, 17 May 2016 09:11
Quote:
I don't know where it should go, in "instant" or "legacy" setup, but I clicked instant and it took forever
Yes, I would call it "Automatic" instead of "Instant".

Yesterday I installed a new MSC15 and finally I set the directories by hand, that was easy but not evident as thanks to Microsoft, in different computers the MSC15 directories are different Sad


ok, looks like they have updated some things...

Currently, U++ is trying to search for dirs based on names. I guess they have changed.

Could you give me overview of dirs in Program Files? Like

cd /Program Files
dir /AD /S

Mirek
Re: What next? [message #46520 is a reply to message #46517] Thu, 19 May 2016 17:17 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 243
Registered: March 2010
Experienced Member
Hi,

I think, we can find all MSCxx installation paths, by enumeration of registry subkeys and values.

please, test the function below, and let us know if it success or fail to detect your.

on my win7 64, it show:

SDK found:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\10
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v7.1A
C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\8.0
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v8.0A
C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\8.1
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft SDKs\Windows\v8.1A
Visual Studio found:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 12.0\
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 12.0\
C:\Program Files (x86)\Microsoft Visual Studio 14.0\



the code:

#include <Core/Core.h>
using namespace Upp;

Vector<String> GetWinRegSubKeys(String reg_path, HKEY base_key = HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE)
{
	HKEY key = 0;
	DWORD  dwSize = 0;
	DWORD count; // subkeys
	
	Vector<String> v;
	
	if(RegOpenKeyEx(base_key, reg_path, 0, KEY_READ, &key) != ERROR_SUCCESS)
		return v;
	StringBuffer buf(2048);
	
	RegQueryInfoKey(key,NULL,NULL,NULL,&count,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL);

    for(int i=0; i< count; i++){
        dwSize = 2048;
        RegEnumKeyEx(key,i,buf,&dwSize,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL);
        v.Add( String(buf.Begin(), dwSize)) ;
    }

    RegCloseKey(key);
    return v;
}

Vector<String> GetWinRegValues(String reg_path, HKEY base_key = HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE)
{
	HKEY key = 0;
	DWORD  dwSize = 0;
	DWORD count; // subkeys
	
	Vector<String> v;
	
	if(RegOpenKeyEx(base_key, reg_path, 0, KEY_READ, &key) != ERROR_SUCCESS)
		return v;
	StringBuffer buf(2048);
	
	RegQueryInfoKey(key,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL, &count,NULL,NULL,NULL,NULL);

    for(int i=0; i< count; i++){
        dwSize = 2048;
		RegEnumValue(key, i, buf, &dwSize, NULL, NULL, NULL, NULL);
        v.Add( String(buf.Begin(), dwSize)) ;
    }

    RegCloseKey(key);
    return v;
}

String NormalizePathNN(const String& path)
{
	return IsNull(path) ? path : NormalizePath(path);
}

void FindMSC()
{
	Vector<String> v = GetWinRegSubKeys("SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\Microsoft SDKs\\Windows", HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE);
	
	if(v.GetCount())
		LOG("SDK found:");
	else
		LOG("no SDK found");
	for(int i = 0; i < v.GetCount(); i++)
	{
		LOG(NormalizePathNN(GetWinRegString("InstallationFolder",
		                                       "SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\Microsoft SDKs\\Windows\\" + v[i],
		                                       HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE)));
	}
		
	v = GetWinRegValues("SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\VisualStudio\\SxS\\VS7", HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE);
	
	if(v.GetCount())
		LOG("Visual Studio found:");
	else
		LOG("No Visual Studio found");
	for(int i = 0; i < v.GetCount(); i++)
	{
		LOG(GetWinRegString(v[i], "SOFTWARE\\Microsoft\\VisualStudio\\SxS\\VS7", HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE));
	}
}

CONSOLE_APP_MAIN
{
	FindMSC();
}





regards
omari.
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