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Home » U++ TheIDE » U++ TheIDE: Other Features Wishlist and/or Bugs » First view is too complicated? (Please let me know what do you thing)
First view is too complicated? [message #54861] Wed, 23 September 2020 00:12 Go to next message
Klugier is currently offline  Klugier
Messages: 1076
Registered: September 2012
Location: Poland, Kraków
Senior Contributor
Hello,

After analyzing first view I came into conclusion that it is too complicated for the new user. It is also too easy to do something wrong here. The first impression is important - optimally without reading any tutorials I shouldn't fail here and do not break anything that will prevents me in further use.

Let's take a look at this wonderful layout:
index.php?t=getfile&id=6215&private=0

My question here is:
- Do the new users needs to know about the nests and new that the first directory is the directory where his main package belongs to? Probably uppsrc should be added implicitly to the all other assemblies, so the new user should see "/home/klugier/upp/MyApps" instead of "/home/klugier/upp/MyApps;/home/klugier/upp/uppsrc". We could add it when we detect in uppsrc in configuration.
- First view should warns when uppsrc is not set correctly or is set, but there are no essential packages like Core, CtrlLib;
- TheIDE is not usable when there is no uppsrc. The same is true for assemblies. You can not develop MyApps when uppsrc is missing...
- Some advanced mode when you really need different uppsrc. In 99% you need the default one.
- MyApps could be treated in some special cases - make it bold or draw star near to it. We should make it like the first level in Mario Wink
- We could treat bazaar on the same level as uppsrc, but only if assemblies will contain bazaar keyword (double implicit assemblies - uppsrc and bazaar).
- Package nests could be renamed to "Main package nest.".
- tooltip on hoovering assemblies. We could just pass some information here to inform what is what.

Please let me know what we can simplify here to make it more easy for the new users.

Klugier


U++ - one framework to rule them all.

[Updated on: Wed, 23 September 2020 00:44]

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Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54892 is a reply to message #54861] Fri, 25 September 2020 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Klugier wrote on Wed, 23 September 2020 00:12
Hello,

After analyzing first view I came into conclusion that it is too complicated for the new user. It is also too easy to do something wrong here. The first impression is important - optimally without reading any tutorials I shouldn't fail here and do not break anything that will prevents me in further use.

Let's take a look at this wonderful layout:
index.php?t=getfile&id=6215&private=0

My question here is:
- Do the new users needs to know about the nests and new that the first directory is the directory where his main package belongs to? Probably uppsrc should be added implicitly to the all other assemblies, so the new user should see "/home/klugier/upp/MyApps" instead of "/home/klugier/upp/MyApps;/home/klugier/upp/uppsrc". We could add it when we detect in uppsrc in configuration.
- First view should warns when uppsrc is not set correctly or is set, but there are no essential packages like Core, CtrlLib;
- TheIDE is not usable when there is no uppsrc. The same is true for assemblies. You can not develop MyApps when uppsrc is missing...
- Some advanced mode when you really need different uppsrc. In 99% you need the default one.
- MyApps could be treated in some special cases - make it bold or draw star near to it. We should make it like the first level in Mario Wink
- We could treat bazaar on the same level as uppsrc, but only if assemblies will contain bazaar keyword (double implicit assemblies - uppsrc and bazaar).
- Package nests could be renamed to "Main package nest.".
- tooltip on hoovering assemblies. We could just pass some information here to inform what is what.

Please let me know what we can simplify here to make it more easy for the new users.

Klugier


IDK, while I agree that the WHOLE concept is complex, I do think this complexity is hidden at the start. E.g. assemblies are setup correctly, so 'no uppsrc' should not be a problem.

BTW, our audience is people familiar with C/C++. Do you think the concept of makefiles is any easier?

Mirek
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54942 is a reply to message #54892] Wed, 30 September 2020 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 265
Registered: March 2010
Experienced Member
Hi,

in this patch, i have merged BaseSetupDlg and NestEditorDlg.

index.php?t=getfile&id=6237&private=0


regards
omari.
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54943 is a reply to message #54942] Wed, 30 September 2020 20:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 265
Registered: March 2010
Experienced Member
the patch.
  • Attachment: upp.diff
    (Size: 8.34KB, Downloaded 132 times)


regards
omari.
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54944 is a reply to message #54942] Wed, 30 September 2020 20:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oblivion is currently offline  Oblivion
Messages: 1092
Registered: August 2007
Senior Contributor
Hello omari,

I'd personally prefer this merged dialog to the original.
It clearly shows at first look which nests the assembly pulls in.
Not to mention it allows a simpler workflow (less clicks.)

My suggestions:

- Move the toolbar to top (as it was)

- Add a resize gadget and make the dialog resizable (Original version always striked me as too crowded, because of its narrow shape)

- Accordingly, have a larger default rectangular (square, to be precise) dialog window (so that it doesn't look crowded.)


Best regards,
Oblivion


[Updated on: Wed, 30 September 2020 20:22]

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Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54945 is a reply to message #54944] Wed, 30 September 2020 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
The first line in dialog should something like "Binary" or "Output folder", not "Assembly"...
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54946 is a reply to message #54942] Wed, 30 September 2020 22:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klugier is currently offline  Klugier
Messages: 1076
Registered: September 2012
Location: Poland, Kraków
Senior Contributor
Hello Omari,

Very nice contribution. I like it! This is indeed simplification and intentness are more expressive.

Quote:
The first line in dialog should something like "Binary" or "Output folder", not "Assembly"...

This is indeed assembly, please noticed that omari just move "main" nest to the strange folder named like output folder... Maybe we should just name it "Assembly directory". It would be nice fit to "Assembly description". Omari, could you provided screenshot with simple (default) assembly name?

Quote:

Add a resize gadget and make the dialog resizable (Original version always striked me as too crowded, because of its narrow shape)

I agree nice addition - can be added any time. (not necessarily with this change)

Quote:

Move the toolbar to top (as it was)

We can experiment with the toolbar on the top with named entries (similar to macro manager). However, we should keep it within array.

Quote:

- Accordingly, have a larger default rectangular (square, to be precise) dialog window (so that it doesn't look crowded.)

We quote to make sure that long paths are displayed by default without need of resizing. In current improved iteration current size could stay.

Klugier


U++ - one framework to rule them all.

[Updated on: Wed, 30 September 2020 22:26]

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Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54947 is a reply to message #54946] Wed, 30 September 2020 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oblivion is currently offline  Oblivion
Messages: 1092
Registered: August 2007
Senior Contributor
Hello Klugier,

Quote:
However, we should keep it within array.


Clarification: yes, that's what I meant. A top-aligned toolbar of the Array Smile

Best regards,
Oblivion


Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54950 is a reply to message #54947] Thu, 01 October 2020 11:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 265
Registered: March 2010
Experienced Member
Hi,
Thanks for all your suggestions.

here the new screenshot:

index.php?t=getfile&id=6239&private=0
  • Attachment: upp.png
    (Size: 105.08KB, Downloaded 397 times)


regards
omari.
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54951 is a reply to message #54950] Thu, 01 October 2020 11:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 265
Registered: March 2010
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the new diff:
  • Attachment: upp2.diff
    (Size: 8.57KB, Downloaded 124 times)


regards
omari.
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54953 is a reply to message #54950] Thu, 01 October 2020 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13975
Registered: November 2005
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I am sorry, but I do not like the idea of treating the first nest separately.

In general, I am sort of opposed to removing / hiding features just to make it "beginner friendly". Especially, I still want to be able to edit the assembly manually.

In any case, the label is still incorrect, at least if we do now want to change the terminlogy. "Assembly" is the ordered list of nests (which are folders with u++ packages). What is in the first line is "First nest", not "Assembly".

Mirek

[Updated on: Thu, 01 October 2020 13:35]

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Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54954 is a reply to message #54861] Thu, 01 October 2020 13:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13975
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Klugier wrote on Wed, 23 September 2020 00:12

- TheIDE is not usable when there is no uppsrc. The same is true for assemblies. You can not develop MyApps when uppsrc is missing...


How so? While TheIDE has a lot of code now specific to U++, you can still use it as general C++ ide, without uppsrc, or even as editor. Everything works.

I see no reason for removing this feature...

Mirek
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54956 is a reply to message #54954] Thu, 01 October 2020 17:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jimlef is currently offline  jimlef
Messages: 90
Registered: September 2020
Location: US
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I'm new to all of this myself, U++, even C++ (although I've been programming various since the early 90's).

    I downloaded the package (on linux mint) about 2 weeks ago and followed the directions.
    Extracted to dir - in my case '/home/james/upp'.
    Ran 'install' in terminal (dependencies were met in advance, so no sudo).
    Ran TheIde.
    Compiled examples and started programming.
Took a few minutes to get used to the right-click idea, but the layout and function seemed very programmer-friendly. My only "issues" were/are all about my lack of knowledge regarding U++/C++, and reading the forums / website and asking questions helps with that Smile. If the terminology is a little different from my preconceived expectations, I have to ask to understand.

I'm all for keeping things simple. I now have a program that I have started to use (still a few features left to implement though), because it was simple enough. All I can say is I'm grateful to everyone involved, for providing this and keeping it alive. If I were to change anything at all at the outset, I'd make the root of the output folders not hidden by default (.cache/upp.out -> output or just upp.out), but that can be changed in the settings.

Finally, I agree with Klugier in that I do find theide to be strongly bound to uppsrc. The layout editor may be converted to another use - with not insubstantial effort, perhaps - and theide can be used easily enough as just an editor apart from uppsrc, but for me the whole point was the combination ide/layouteditor/libraries, and their cross-platform compatibility. I can also confirm it is much easier (and better looking) for me than say wxWidgets in that regard. I've converted two of my other c# programs for native use on Mint last month, both using python (and one with wxWidgets), and while neither had the complexity of my latest effort, they did convince me that u++ is the way to go Wink

Jim
Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54967 is a reply to message #54956] Fri, 02 October 2020 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 13975
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jimlef wrote on Thu, 01 October 2020 17:22

Compiled examples and started programming.


Based on jimlef performance (he learned most of U++ needed to develop quite complex SQL application in like 14 days) I am quite convinced that the idea that some simplifications in Select package dialog will have any impact on U++ popularity is pretty lame.

Compared to other platforms, U++ is now as easy to use as it gets. The real problem is nobody knows about it. And the reason for that is we spend our time in endless efforts to make things easier for new users (not all of these improvements are bad though!) instead of telling potential users about out mere existence... Smile

Let us focus on popularization and then on implementing things that really matter! On the later, what we really need to focus on now is:

- uppiverse
- advanced unicode support
- dwarf debugging info

I would especially need help with the dwarf, that one is huge problem, but solving it would put us years ahead in debugging department both in Linux and in Windows.

Mirek

[Updated on: Fri, 02 October 2020 13:05]

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Re: First view is too complicated? [message #54969 is a reply to message #54953] Fri, 02 October 2020 12:08 Go to previous message
omari is currently offline  omari
Messages: 265
Registered: March 2010
Experienced Member
mirek wrote on Thu, 01 October 2020 12:32
I am sorry, but I do not like the idea of treating the first nest separately.
Mirek


i am agree that all assembly nests are equivalents.
but the default behavior of "Select main package" : and "Create new package" dialogs is:
- when an assembly is selected , only the main packages belong to the first nest is shown.
still we can list all package of all nests.
- a new package is created inside the first nest.
still we can create a package into any assembly nests.

this default behavior is sufficient for 99% of the cases.
IMO a user shall know his work directory, and manage it separately. for example add it to a backup system.


regards
omari.
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