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Home » Community » U++ community news and announcements » Quick start issues for new users
icon4.gif  Quick start issues for new users [message #5727] Wed, 11 October 2006 11:58 Go to next message
lancelaneway is currently offline  lancelaneway
Messages: 1
Registered: October 2006
Junior Member
First I would like to express my thanks to all who are trying to make this the ultimate compiler for C++ developers.

I have attempted to use this compiler at verious stages of development and here are the issues I have with it:

<1> INSTALLATION: Install dialogs need to be updated. Microsoft Visual C++ free edition 2003 is no longer available (replaced by 2005); but I don't like the Microsoft bloatware anyway and prefer MinGW. And although the latest build comes with the compiler pre-installed, the confusing message about downloading and installing another MinGW copy makes install painful for newvians.

<2> SPEED: Building programs is SSSLLLOOOWWW... ... ... (slow) I would like to build my program at least twice a day so I can make corrections. DevC++ can build small applications in less than 1 second, instead of several long minutes with Ultimate++.

<3> SIZE: They say that bigger is better, but applications that are small can run almost entirely in cache ram of the processor. Even when optimized for size, final programs are 3 times larger than VC6 (Yes this comparison includes statically linked and embedded runtimes on both compilers).

<4> ...(sorry running out of time, but I have more issues)

I know I may have not given this IDE more than a cursory glance primarily due to issue <2>, but I would like those of you who are more experienced to voice your opinions as to why you think that developers should switch from other IDEs to Ultimate++.

Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5731 is a reply to message #5727] Wed, 11 October 2006 14:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
unodgs is currently offline  unodgs
Messages: 1356
Registered: November 2005
Location: Poland
Senior Contributor

lancelaneway wrote on Wed, 11 October 2006 05:58

First I would like to express my thanks to all who are trying to make this the ultimate compiler for C++ developers.

I have attempted to use this compiler at verious stages of development and here are the issues I have with it:

<1> INSTALLATION: Install dialogs need to be updated. Microsoft Visual C++ free edition 2003 is no longer available (replaced by 2005); but I don't like the Microsoft bloatware anyway and prefer MinGW. And although the latest build comes with the compiler pre-installed, the confusing message about downloading and installing another MinGW copy makes install painful for newvians.



Is there Visual C++ TOOLKIT 2005?? (I'm not talking about express with ide)

Quote:


<2> SPEED: Building programs is SSSLLLOOOWWW... ... ... (slow) I would like to build my program at least twice a day so I can make corrections. DevC++ can build small applications in less than 1 second, instead of several long minutes with Ultimate++.



What compiler do you use? Do you build in BLITZ mode? Anyway only first compiling shuld be longer bacause of fact that all needed upp libraries need to be built. Lately I was compiling qt 4.2 - it took over 20 minutes..

Quote:


<3> SIZE: They say that bigger is better, but applications that are small can run almost entirely in cache ram of the processor. Even when optimized for size, final programs are 3 times larger than VC6 (Yes this comparison includes statically linked and embedded runtimes on both compilers).



Do you compare pure win32 api program with upp, or you're talking about MFC app?

Upp adds some kilobytes to you app, but it is only about 500-1000Kb - it's up to numbers of packages in your app.
Later size of your app grows slowly - proportionaly to lines of code you wrote.

Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5733 is a reply to message #5727] Wed, 11 October 2006 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Quote:


<2> SPEED: Building programs is SSSLLLOOOWWW... ... ... (slow) I would like to build my program at least twice a day so I can make corrections. DevC++ can build small applications in less than 1 second, instead of several long minutes with Ultimate++.



Try to build something of equivalent size. Even smallest U++ GUI examples have to compile the whole GUI library first (about 60000 lines in 160 C++ files). If I remember well, Dev-C++ examples are nothing more than single .cpp file usually. No surprise that compiling single file is faster.

Anyway, once you have compiled it for the first time, libraries should be cached for further use.

Quote:


Even when optimized for size, final programs are 3 times larger than VC6 (Yes this comparison includes statically linked and embedded runtimes on both compilers).



Unfortunately (as long as you are comparing apples with apples - building the same code), this is the feature of mingw (and gcc, although latest seems a bit better) toolchain.... It simply produces about 70-100% longer code compared to MSC tools. Sad but true.

Quote:


more experienced to voice your opinions as to why you think that developers should switch from other IDEs to Ultimate++.



No, we do not think developers should move to TheIDE alone. But we would like to move them to U++ _platform_ (which includes the library).

Mirek
Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5736 is a reply to message #5731] Wed, 11 October 2006 18:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
unodgs wrote on Wed, 11 October 2006 08:27


Is there Visual C++ TOOLKIT 2005?? (I'm not talking about express with ide)



Interestingly, while browsing some eiffel resources I have learned that Visual C++ should also come with .NET platform... I will have to check this yet...

Mirek
Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5744 is a reply to message #5727] Thu, 12 October 2006 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Quote:


<1> INSTALLATION: Install dialogs need to be updated. Microsoft Visual C++ free edition 2003 is no longer available (replaced by 2005); but I don't like the Microsoft bloatware anyway and prefer MinGW. And although the latest build comes with the compiler pre-installed, the confusing message about downloading and installing another MinGW copy makes install painful for newvians.



Thanks for bringing this to my attention - TheIDE now suggests the new Microsft SDK which includes C++ compiler (8.0). (What a pity there is still no free compiler for PocketPC).

Mirek
Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5745 is a reply to message #5744] Thu, 12 October 2006 17:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Werner is currently offline  Werner
Messages: 234
Registered: May 2006
Location: Cologne / Germany
Experienced Member
luzr wrote on Thu, 12 October 2006 15:22

What a pity there is still no free compiler for PocketPC.


Well, I myself am not interested in PocketPC. I prefer my Palm. Very Happy

But the author of SmartWin++ states (http://smartwin.sourceforge.net/justified.php):

Quote:

Windows CE

SmartWin++ can build Windows CE applications! There exists not many GUI libraries today which can actually successfully build Windows CE applications. Maybe two or three other mature GUI libraries have true Windows CE capabillities today! SmartWin++ can compile the same code on Windows CE or Pocket PC as it compiles for your desktop system as long as you follow some few guidelines!
(Read the Wiki)



And moreover (http://smartwin.sourceforge.net/):

Quote:

SmartWin++ officially supports these compilers:

* Microsoft Visual C++ 2003
* Microsoft Visual C++ 2005
* MinGW/gcc 3.4



Werner

[Updated on: Thu, 12 October 2006 17:37]

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Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5747 is a reply to message #5745] Thu, 12 October 2006 19:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Quote:

SmartWin++ officially supports these compilers:

* Microsoft Visual C++ 2003
* Microsoft Visual C++ 2005
* MinGW/gcc 3.4



Well, I am afraid this does not imply there is free pocketpc compiler....

Mirek
Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5751 is a reply to message #5747] Thu, 12 October 2006 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Werner is currently offline  Werner
Messages: 234
Registered: May 2006
Location: Cologne / Germany
Experienced Member
luzr wrote on Thu, 12 October 2006 19:20

Well, I am afraid this does not imply there is free pocketpc compiler....


Maybe I'm misunderstanding something Confused , but Hansen states (http://smartwin.sourceforge.net/doc/):

    Target operating systems
    * Windows
    * Windows CE
    * Linux via the WineLib.

    Tested Compilers:
    * Microsoft Visual C++ 7.1 (2003), its Toolkit, and Microsoft Studio C++ 2005 Express (Beta)
    * GCC 3.4 / MinGW or later (see Bloodshed Dev++ or Eclipse for an IDE using MinGW)


Doesn't that mean that you can build programs for Windows CE using one of the above-mentioned compilers?

And if so: Aren't they free?

Or do you mean a compiler which runs on a Pocket PC device?

Werner

Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5753 is a reply to message #5751] Fri, 13 October 2006 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
Werner wrote on Thu, 12 October 2006 14:30

luzr wrote on Thu, 12 October 2006 19:20

Well, I am afraid this does not imply there is free pocketpc compiler....


Maybe I'm misunderstanding something Confused , but Hansen states (http://smartwin.sourceforge.net/doc/):

    Target operating systems
    * Windows
    * Windows CE
    * Linux via the WineLib.

    Tested Compilers:
    * Microsoft Visual C++ 7.1 (2003), its Toolkit, and Microsoft Studio C++ 2005 Express (Beta)
    * GCC 3.4 / MinGW or later (see Bloodshed Dev++ or Eclipse for an IDE using MinGW)


Doesn't that mean that you can build programs for Windows CE using one of the above-mentioned compilers?




No, you cannot. (Believe me, this topic is topmost importance for use Smile

To build for WinCE, you need Visual C++ 2005 Pro - that is the minimum containing required ARM crosscompiler.

There are also free SDKs with compilers from Microsoft, but they contain old MSC6.0 compiler - too little to compile U++.

Anyway, as the new Windows SDK came as pleasent surprise to me (because it contains AMD64 and Itanium compilers, which I only available with Visual C++ 2005 Pro as well otherwise), chances are that MS will release something similiar for PocketPC soon...

Then there also is GCC for ARM and it looks like that it is possible to use it for PocketPC as well. There however is no stable support, therefore we (well Tom) started to work on the issue, unfortunately it seems like it will not be done in time for next major release.

Mirek

[Updated on: Fri, 13 October 2006 04:47]

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Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5815 is a reply to message #5727] Tue, 17 October 2006 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lectus is currently offline  lectus
Messages: 329
Registered: September 2006
Location: Brazil
Senior Member
There is Pelles C for Win32 and PocketPC.
Although it's only for C, not C++.
http://www.smorgasbordet.com/pellesc/
Re: Quick start issues for new users [message #5818 is a reply to message #5815] Wed, 18 October 2006 01:19 Go to previous message
mirek is currently offline  mirek
Messages: 12716
Registered: November 2005
Ultimate Member
lectus wrote on Tue, 17 October 2006 15:41

There is Pelles C for Win32 and PocketPC.
Although it's only for C, not C++.
http://www.smorgasbordet.com/pellesc/


There is more like that, creating C compiler is not that hard. However, good C++ is rare species.

Mirek
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