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Home » Community » Coffee corner » some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question
some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54510] Thu, 06 August 2020 03:55 Go to next message
Xemuth is currently offline  Xemuth
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https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp_questions/comments/gb6h7p/u_vs_ wxwidgets_vs_qt_best_c_gui/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_s ource=share

https://www.reddit.com/r/cpp/comments/gb5shc/u_vs_wxwidgets_ vs_qt_best_c_gui/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=shar e

I was spending some time on the subreddit cpp and cpp_question and found this post about U++
It seems Upp is not known Sad


[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2020 04:10]

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Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54513 is a reply to message #54510] Thu, 06 August 2020 10:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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Yes. Unfortunately.

Frankly, I have run out of options how to change that years ago.... Sad
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54515 is a reply to message #54513] Thu, 06 August 2020 13:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xemuth is currently offline  Xemuth
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But what can explain some framework like Qt or WxWidgets is well more known, is QT team or else has made advertisement ?

Both Qt and WxWidgets have their own license, do it make them (from an enterprise point of view) more serious way of working than a BSD framework ?
(if yes then, what about Linux ? Apache ? etc ?)

from my knowledge, beginner developer don't do C++, but everytime I introduce some of them to U++ they get convinced by the power of the tool. the only problem is their lack of skills about C++ and all the complexicity of "pointers" "mutex" "stack/heap memory" . Damn you modern alternatives to C++ !


[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2020 13:29]

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Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54517 is a reply to message #54515] Thu, 06 August 2020 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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Xemuth wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 13:25
But what can explain some framework like Qt or WxWidgets is well more known, is QT team or else has made advertisement ?


Qt is developed by big commercial team. Frankly, that creates an image of stability and future.

WxWidgets are somewhat older than U++ and were used for some pretty important apps. Also wxWidgets archicture, if I remember well, is unique in a sense that it is not emulated toolkit (means wxWidgets is using widgets from host platform, unlike U++ or Qt, which has own implementation) - this probably has some appeal for developers too.

Mirek
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54520 is a reply to message #54517] Thu, 06 August 2020 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xemuth is currently offline  Xemuth
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mirek wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 17:32

if I remember well, is unique in a sense that it is not emulated toolkit (means wxWidgets is using widgets from host platform, unlike U++ or Qt, which has own implementation) - this probably has some appeal for developers too.


Maybe it is a stupid question but in what's point of having widgets from host platform instead of emulated (which allow cross platform) could be attractive for developers ?
(knowing Upp widget can work on different operating system comfort me on the idea of one time I will be able to release my application not only on windows but also on Linux)


Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54521 is a reply to message #54520] Thu, 06 August 2020 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Klugier is currently offline  Klugier
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Hello Xemuth,

Quote:

Maybe it is a stupid question but in what's point of having widgets from host platform instead of emulated (which allow cross platform) could be attractive for developers ?
(knowing Upp widget can work on different operating system comfort me on the idea of one time I will be able to release my application not only on windows but also on Linux)

The reason for that is that you have better look and fell in compare to Upp. The tricky part about it is that it is still multiplatform. WxWidgets creates wrapper class for that, so in application code you call wrapper not use the native code. So, your application is potable across operating systems. FileZilla is good example of multi-platform app created with that technology. The same code base for Windows, Linux and macOS. However, I always find WxWidgets application heavy and slow. It runs slows in compare to native or Upp applications.

Also, please notice that QT uses the same approach as Upp. No native widgets (KDE is the exception Wink) all is draw and the styled depending on the platform.

Quote:

from my knowledge, beginner developer don't do C++, but everytime I introduce some of them to U++ they get convinced by the power of the tool. the only problem is their lack of skills about C++ and all the complexicity of "pointers" "mutex" "stack/heap memory" . Damn you modern alternatives to C++ !

The problem with C++ is that it is 40 years old technology. Within this time humanity advanced in the term of thinking about programming language. The good example of that is Rust programming language. It is similar to C++ in context of performance (no garbage collector), but better designed. In context of memory safety (crashes are common problems with application written in C/C++) and easy to use (header files are outdated). Also it posses package manager, which makes whole platform easy to expand. Please notice that right know Linux kernel is experimenting with that technology and will probably allow to write drivers with it.

Quote:

But what can explain some framework like Qt or WxWidgets is well more known, is QT team or else has made advertisement ?

For the larger compones (corporations) QT is better that WxWidget or Upp. The main reason for that is they have money to pay for professional license. But, it is not the case. The main reason for that is they offer stability. It is develop under QT company, so in compare to Upp which is mainly maintenance by single developer - Mirek. Please imagine what will happen with Upp when Mirek will stop working on that? In case of QT they can replace employees more easily. They also offer commercial support which is nice. If you are for example blocked by issue in the library you can force them to fix that issue. In case of Upp nobody can force Mirek to do anything Wink

The features I like about QT:
- Styling via CSS (Non technical person can modify the look of the app like UX Designer - very important for bigger companies)
- QML - UI separated from the binary. You can modify layouts without recompiling application. Still important for non technical users for modifying the look of application.
- Support for mobile devices (no critical, but nice to have)
- UI can be tested - important in big projects that want to provide high quality for the users. Moreover, the risk is greater when more developers work on project
- Other IDE integration (Visual Studio, CMake, Conan packages etc).

Sincerely,
Klugier


Ultimate++ - one framework to rule them all.

[Updated on: Thu, 06 August 2020 20:30]

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Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54522 is a reply to message #54513] Thu, 06 August 2020 21:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Novo is currently offline  Novo
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mirek wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 04:39
Yes. Unfortunately.

Frankly, I have run out of options how to change that years ago.... Sad

For some reason I never saw your presentation at Meeting CPP Smile


Regards,
Novo
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54523 is a reply to message #54515] Thu, 06 August 2020 21:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Novo is currently offline  Novo
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Xemuth wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 07:25
But what can explain some framework like Qt or WxWidgets is well more known, is QT team or else has made advertisement ?

They not just advertise. They advertise extremely aggressively. They attack everybody who can compete with them. I personally was attacked by one of the top QT guys for just saying that we are making a similar product in a different domain (they didn't have similar technology at that time, probably, still do not have it). I'm pretty sure QT is spending money to make U++ invisible.


Regards,
Novo
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54524 is a reply to message #54521] Thu, 06 August 2020 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xemuth is currently offline  Xemuth
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Hello Klugier, thanks for this explanation,

Klugier wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 20:14

Within this time humanity advanced in the term of thinking about programming language


Indeed but the goal of differents C++ release is not to follow the humain thinking about programming language ?

Klugier wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 20:14

Please notice that right know Linux kernel is experimenting with that technology and will probably allow to write drivers with it


Do it mean that C++ is condemned to extinguish itself?

Klugier wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 20:14

For the larger compones (corporations) QT is better that WxWidget or Upp. The main reason for that is they have money to pay for professional license. But, it is not the case. The main reason for that is they offer stability. It is develop under QT company, so in compare to Upp which is mainly maintenance by single developer - Mirek. Please imagine what will happen with Upp when Mirek will stop working on that? In case of QT they can replace employees more easily. They also offer commercial support which is nice. If you are for example blocked by issue in the library you can force them to fix that issue. In case of Upp nobody can force Mirek to do anything Wink


Indeed from a company view the fact Qt is a company wich provide services to client make it a strong choice. However this BSD license + all the source code could allow a company in a long term view to have a solide framework wich allow them to compete (in terme of needed features ) with QT without any licenses ? (maybe the cost of learning the entire framework and improving it in their way is to expensive ?)

Klugier wrote on Thu, 06 August 2020 20:14

Please imagine what will happen with Upp when Mirek will stop working on that?

Disaster ! The fact Upp is a BSD could allow some developper to take back is work to improve it ? Maybe it's Too good to be true. At Least the footprint of the framework will remain since the source is accessible

Maybe a way to make Upp more used would be to provide by differents way some trainings about all axis of Upp (indeed it already exist via all example) but something deeper ? maybe video about it or virtual classroom ? Maybe I'm a dreamer and the state of informatique in a company point of view is too stuck/ hard coded to start using new technology Confused





[Updated on: Fri, 07 August 2020 00:05]

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Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54526 is a reply to message #54524] Fri, 07 August 2020 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
koldo is currently offline  koldo
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IMHO a way to get momentum would be to get paid support/paid developers to advance in some interesting structural areas (not just developing a new widget) like other ide integration, mobiles, full Github integration, etc.
With that push we may make a quantum leap to be in the premier league.


Best regards
Iñaki
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54527 is a reply to message #54526] Fri, 07 August 2020 09:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pvictor is currently offline  pvictor
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As an occasional U++ user, I think that it is a great cross platform RAD tool and only lacks two things:

- a good book (especially for beginners in C++).
There are many subtle places in advanced programs which are unclear and having a book, describing these technics would greatly help.

- a comprehensive help system.
As for now, there are many useful classes and functions in U++, that are not even mentioned in help and can be found only accidentally. For example: ImagePainter, BufferPainter, FileSelNative, PaintInfo, msecs(), usecs(), Random().

I understand that writing help is a boring work, but it could increase the popularity of U++.

Best regards,
Victor
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54528 is a reply to message #54521] Fri, 07 August 2020 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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Quote:

The problem with C++ is that it is 40 years old technology. Within this time humanity advanced in the term of thinking about programming language. The good example of that is Rust programming language. It is similar to C++ in context of performance (no garbage collector), but better designed. In context of memory safety (crashes are common problems with application written in C/C++) and easy to use (header files are outdated). Also it posses package manager, which makes whole platform easy to expand. Please notice that right know Linux kernel is experimenting with that technology and will probably allow to write drivers with it.


To be fair, C++ was continually evolving over those 40 years. C++ today is not the same as C++ in 1985... I guess the problem is with C++ is that it is very successful (large portion of software in use today is written in C++) while hard to master, so that creates optics of "old quirky technology".
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54529 is a reply to message #54527] Fri, 07 August 2020 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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pvictor wrote on Fri, 07 August 2020 09:05
As an occasional U++ user, I think that it is a great cross platform RAD tool and only lacks two things:

- a good book (especially for beginners in C++).
There are many subtle places in advanced programs which are unclear and having a book, describing these technics would greatly help.

- a comprehensive help system.
As for now, there are many useful classes and functions in U++, that are not even mentioned in help and can be found only accidentally. For example: ImagePainter, BufferPainter, FileSelNative, PaintInfo, msecs(), usecs(), Random().

I understand that writing help is a boring work, but it could increase the popularity of U++.

Best regards,
Victor


I agree. But one thing to add is that all these things should be 'outward'. So far I am in endless cycle of improving U++, adding more docs, help etc, but problem is that all that happens in our repo and nobody know. I am sorry but somewhat I lack the energy to make things more public...

I still believe that the best chance is to carefully disseminate articles in places that (still) allow it, like CodeProject. If I would be able to write more than single article a year, things would probably be better Smile
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54630 is a reply to message #54526] Sun, 23 August 2020 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
koldo is currently offline  koldo
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koldo wrote on Fri, 07 August 2020 00:33
IMHO a way to get momentum would be to get paid support/paid developers to advance in some interesting structural areas (not just developing a new widget) like other ide integration, mobiles, full Github integration, etc.
With that push we may make a quantum leap to be in the premier league.

For example, you can compare us with Rust. They have big sponsors including tenths of full time employees. That is a huge advantage.
The bad side of this is when the sponsor cuts suddenly the support.


Best regards
Iñaki
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54634 is a reply to message #54630] Mon, 24 August 2020 08:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
koldo is currently offline  koldo
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You can imagine, for example, ten full-time expert programmers working under the direction of Mirek.
Just for 6 months, they could get a lot of things.


Best regards
Iñaki
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54637 is a reply to message #54634] Mon, 24 August 2020 10:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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koldo wrote on Mon, 24 August 2020 08:11
You can imagine, for example, ten full-time expert programmers working under the direction of Mirek.
Just for 6 months, they could get a lot of things.


Yeah, we can all dream.... Smile
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54689 is a reply to message #54529] Tue, 01 September 2020 12:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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mirek wrote on Fri, 07 August 2020 09:26

I still believe that the best chance is to carefully disseminate articles in places that (still) allow it, like CodeProject. If I would be able to write more than single article a year, things would probably be better Smile


At least I am trying: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5268022/Getting-Started -with-Uplusplus-2020-1

Now if every U++ dev published just single article per year, we would be much better known now... (I have already fullfilled my quota this year with 2 articles Smile

Publish or perish... Smile

Mirek
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54690 is a reply to message #54689] Tue, 01 September 2020 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oblivion is currently offline  Oblivion
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Quote:

At least I am trying: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5268022/Getting-Started -with-Uplusplus-2020-1


Nice. Smile

How about if I write a two-part tutorial on Core/SSH package.

The first part would use the reference/SshBasics example to demonstrate the classes and usage (it already covers the most aspects of SSH package, including MT)

The second part would use my SftpBrowser example to demonstrate the simplicity of creating SSH-based GUI apps using U++.

I am confident the I can get the first part done before the new year. But would you kindly review the articles before I submit them?Smile

Best regards,
Oblivion



[Updated on: Tue, 01 September 2020 13:51]

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Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54739 is a reply to message #54689] Sat, 05 September 2020 10:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mirek is currently online  mirek
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mirek wrote on Tue, 01 September 2020 12:35
mirek wrote on Fri, 07 August 2020 09:26

I still believe that the best chance is to carefully disseminate articles in places that (still) allow it, like CodeProject. If I would be able to write more than single article a year, things would probably be better Smile


At least I am trying: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5268022/Getting-Started -with-Uplusplus-2020-1

Now if every U++ dev published just single article per year, we would be much better known now... (I have already fullfilled my quota this year with 2 articles Smile


https://sourceforge.net/projects/upp/files/upp/stats/timelin e
Re: some U++ stuff on reddit/cpp_question [message #54741 is a reply to message #54739] Sat, 05 September 2020 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Xemuth is currently offline  Xemuth
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mirek wrote on Sat, 05 September 2020 10:31
mirek wrote on Tue, 01 September 2020 12:35
mirek wrote on Fri, 07 August 2020 09:26

I still believe that the best chance is to carefully disseminate articles in places that (still) allow it, like CodeProject. If I would be able to write more than single article a year, things would probably be better Smile


At least I am trying: https://www.codeproject.com/Articles/5268022/Getting-Started -with-Uplusplus-2020-1

Now if every U++ dev published just single article per year, we would be much better known now... (I have already fullfilled my quota this year with 2 articles Smile


https://sourceforge.net/projects/upp/files/upp/stats/timelin e



This spike of download come from the CodeProject article ?!


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